Episode 48 - What is Marketplace? with Andrew Firman
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One thing that makes this show so special is the feedback we receive from listeners just like you. Today’s episode is the fruit of your feedback.
Many of you have talked about how helpful it would be to connect the Faith Driven Investor world with the Faith Driven Entrepreneur world. Well, we heard you. And out of that has arrived something we are beyond excited to share with you.
It’s called Marketplace, and it’s a space for like-minded investors to find faith-driven deals and funds that help them put real capital to work in a way that makes a real impact. On today’s episode, Henry will share the origin story behind it and you’ll get to meet Andrew Firman, who is helping make it all happen.
Episode Transcript
Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.
Look, we just want to see common grace worked out through our investment capital. We want to see companies that are creating a product or offering a service that is trying to better the community that they are in and is just trying to offer up something to help society flourish and to see the gospel in these industries. So what I've loved about seeing this movement grow is it hasn't just been one little sliver of what's possible in the investing is going across debt and equity capital markets. It's been not just in the US, but global. And so it's just been really encouraging to see how God has really tailored people's interest to say we've got some investments that again, are going to be a little bit more explicitly gospel focused. And we've seen other ones where it's really just what we would think of as quote unquote, a normal type business. But it's being run by a faithful Christian entrepreneur who wants to bring glory to God in what they do.
Hey, everyone, thanks for downloading seriously. You didn't have to listen to this podcast, but you do week after week.
And one thing that makes this show so special is the feedback we received from listeners just like you. Today's episode is the fruit of your feedback. Many of you have talked about how helpful it would be to connect the faith driven investor world with the Faith Driven Entrepreneur world. Well, we heard you at out of that has arrived something we are beyond excited to share with you. It's called Marketplace and well, you'll just need to hear for yourself what it's all about. And now's the time.
William Norvell: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast here with my faithful co-host, Mr. Henry Kaestner. How are you today?
Henry Kaestner: I'm doing great. Thank you for asking. It's awesome to be with you. It always is.
William Norvell: Amen Amen. It's a good day. It's a good day when we get to come do these podcasts with amazing friends from around the world that God has blessed us with and amazing partners like you. And today I'm gonna introduce a special guest, Andrew. But first, I want to frame up this podcast because it's a little different than usual. We have not in a while taken a time to really explain the ministry aspect of faith driven investor. So a lot of our podcast listeners probably hear some hopefully some phenomenal conversations around investing in the marketplace and how people's faith impacts their investing strategies and even their investment vehicles and all kinds of things like that. But as we thought about it, we thought some number of our audience may not be familiar with the broader ministry and what other opportunities there are to get involved and to learn and to be part of the greater community and some other content pieces we have and even furthermore, may not even remember, because we haven't talked about in a while what the actual mission of faith driven investor was. It was birthed out of our Faith Driven Entrepreneur work and ministry, but it has its unique mission in calling. And so I would turn over to you to give a little bit of vision casting for why do we spend time on FDE specifically, of course. And then we'll bring Andron to talk about what he does with the specific investors.
Henry Kaestner: Yeah, no. Sure. And every organization has its origin story and ours comes out of this kind of joint birth, if you will, from Faith Driven Entrepreneur and some of the work we were doing in sovereign's capital. And for those of you of listing to Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast with time, you probably understand how some of that came about. It was that sovereigns we were saying no to ninety nine out of 100 businesses that came to us for financing. We felt really bad about that and wanted to help them out. And that's what gave birth to the blog and a podcast and the newsletter and the conference and all of those things that have been really a lot of fun to do. More than 150 episodes now of the podcast. And it's really neat to see how that is grown. And yet one of the realizations we had was that as grateful as some of these entrepreneurs have been and they've been awesome, they've been super encouraging by sending us emails, by recommending the podcast to their friends, et cetera, that when an entrepreneur is looking for money to really fulfill what they feel, that God has put out an advance for them to do, and he sent them a link to a podcast, you haven't really scratched the completely. And so that's happening. And we're starting to hear that a little bit more was people come in and say, listen, I really appreciate your ministry. I know that sovereigns isn't a fit for what I am. It's wrong stage in history, geography or something like that. But surely you must know of others that you don't want to be able to invest in faith driven founders. And a couple of times we'd make some introductions, but just weren't great at doing that. And that was starting to wear on us at about the same time that we realized that as cool as we thought Sovereign's Capital was, and with more than one hundred ten LPs now, it most assuredly is not the only way that a Christ follower might store the capital that God has entrusted them with. And part of that came from an instance three or four years ago where we thought, gosh, you know, there's incredible opportunity for spiritual migration, real estate. Maybe we should have a real estate fund. Maybe as we contemplated launching Fund three, maybe we should have a real estate fund as well. And pretty quickly, we realized that we're probably not the right ones to launch a real estate fund. I can't even calculate it. Kapre, I'm the wrong guy to run real estate fund. But I bet you there are some people who are serious about their faith out there that are in real estate investing. And maybe we should find them. Maybe we should find them. Maybe we should invest in them. Maybe we should tell others about them. And we've got one hundred and ten LPs. And, you know, we've almost been acting as if if you're a Christian and you've got money, well, surely you should invest in serious capital. And that's clearly wrong and narrow minded. So maybe we need to go and actually find out what's going on out there and then try to rally more and more people around this industry in this cause and what might happen. And so that started originally. A small group of us got together after Seven's capital fund meeting. That was super cool. As you have been following the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast for a while, that's where Tim Keller recorded his identity speech. That's been the most widely. Listen to a podcast of all those that we've done a Faith Driven Entrepreneur show on the annual meeting where Tim Keller spoke the next day, a group of us from Praxis and the gathering at. An Impact Foundation and National Christian Foundation and Trubridge Global and a bunch of us got together and said, what does it look like to be able to bring attention and focus into a broader industry of Christians that are investing their capital in a way that's consistent with their faith? And maybe we can bridge beyond what is a very important industry of those that look at negative screens, not investing in alcohol or gambling or pornography and things like that. But maybe we can focus a little bit more in kind of this resurgence, if you will, that we hope will happen in a positive stream. How is it that investors might be able to talk about their faith in a winsome way? How is it that they might be able to love on people living in their apartment complexes if they're in real estate? How is it that private equity funds might be able to talk about chaplaincy, profit driven employee resource groups? What's the broader picture here and who can we invite into the conversation? So we got together and said, let's have a little conference just focused on that. And by little, we thought we'd start off with 30 or 40, really, and it ended up being one hundred and seventy five people, Deer Valley two summers ago. And we found out that actually there's a bunch of things that are going on. And since then, we found out, as we've looked into this space, that there are obviously incredible direct deals back to these ninety nine out of 100 businesses that we weren't helping out. So lots of great men and women driven by their faith with spiritual integration in the midst of what they're doing as they seek to run a business to glorify God. We expected that there'd be some of that, though not as much as there's been. But one of the things that's been really encouraging over the last two years is to really see the number of funds, professionally managed funds, excellent funds, people with incredible track records, really fine. And one of three different buckets. One is a group of funds that already existed and run by men and women that have had spiritual innovation, primarily in real estate. I might say that for quite some time there have been people who have been hiring ministries like Department Life. The second group are new funds that have developed over the last couple of years, people leaving Wall Street, firms that have great track record employing spiritual integration and things like chaplaincy in their funds. And then the third one is a whole group of funds that are being retrofitted. Men and women run in funds that have said, you know what, we're motivated by our Christian faith. Everybody's talking about ESG, talking about impact investing. Maybe we need to be thoughtful about how our faith manifests itself in what we do as investors. So that's really been encouraging people who are already in the investment business. They're able to bring some of the spiritual integration plan, what they're doing. So we had wanted to not only tell their stories, which we've been doing over the last 30 or so episodes of faith driven investor, but we wanted to also bring people together to continue to encourage each other through the conferences. And then as more and more individual investors, primarily accredited investors, where the rules are a little bit more flexible in terms of the investment opportunities, you can bring them, as more and more people said, how do we get involved in this? We came up with the idea of this marketplace and we've been thinking about the concept of a marketplace for a couple of years now. When Justin came on board and left right now, media, after a hiatus as an entrepreneur, we had talked about what does it look like for Marketplace to be able to match these investors with entrepreneurs and what does that even look like? And we're hoping to encourage other people to do it. But with covid hitting and hearing, just having the increase of entrepreneurs are looking for and financing. And we started off with a shared Google sheet where a bunch of us were starting to invest out of our own personal money, not of sovereigns, but out of our own personal money. I said there's probably an opportunity here to be a little bit more intentional about a launch of a marketplace that would be Web based, where we can endeavor to find great entrepreneurial stories of people raising debt, capital equity, capital revenue, royalties, and it'd be able to list them and present them to LPs of funds like Cerberus Capital and others, and to say, actually, there are lots of different ways for you to steward your wealth and to be brought into the stories of these individual deals, these entrepreneurs, or to come alongside and define these faith based institutional funders and come alongside as LP's in their funds. And maybe in doing so, we might be able to advance the conversation and to still encourage a movement of people be more intentional about their faith in the marketplace has become that physical manifestation of that. And so we knew that if we're going to go ahead, we're going to build up this e-mail platform with all the bells and whistles that you'll find if you go on to and sign up for the marketplace. We knew that we needed to have really great river guides, people who understood financial services that had done really well before, who understood a little bit about international markets, because it's so many of these great entrepreneurs that are in these foreign countries that are doing God's work. And so we came upon upon our guests today, Andrew Furhman and Andrew had been a vice president at JPMorgan. A CFA had helped to run a family office in Dubai, check a lot of those boxes and was just a super cool guy. And so. Andrew is our guest on the podcast today. Andrew, tell us about how you became such a super cool guy. We loved it. Every time we have a guest on a podcast, we like to hear a little bit about their background, who they are, where they come from, and then why they do what they do. Who is Andrew Fermín or William Shatner?
Andrew Firman: Thank you for having me, Henry. I think I can answer most of those questions, the one about how I became a cool guy. I don't know if I'm there. So that's a difficult story. I can give you a bit about my background, though. So I'm here in Texas, I think of an honorary Texan, my wife, and actually just moved back to the US after having lived in Dubai for the past four years. And a lot of what we're talking about on the podcast today, just really the importance of where we can allocate capital. I think you're really able to see here in the US and you're also really able to see it abroad. And I think just beyond that, you're really able to see how the church and the growth of the church can go hand-in-hand with that. So, as you said, my background has been really all across the financial services industry, JP Morgan Chase for a couple of years time in Dubai, as you said, with a family office, spent some time in investment banking as well. And my love really has been finance and capital markets, which I think it's funny to hear a Christian say that. I think so often we have this idea that Wall Street in the stock market is bad. But I just think there's a lot of the Lord's character that you can see come out in capital markets.
So I think that's one of my hopes and one of the things that makes me so excited for the vision, I would say God is place on all of our hearts, which is just what does it look like to help catalyze this movement of investors being thoughtful about where they allocate capital? So that's really what drives me, is just being able to see the Lord working and seeing his glory and how he's designed a world that's great and married children to a little more married wife of about two and a half years.
And she is absolutely wonderful. We have a 14 week old daughter. If the podcast listeners are lucky, she might make an audible appearance. So we will see and we will keep you in suspense.
William Norvell: I'm in. I'm in. That's fantastic. Tell us a little bit about. So you came on board as the marketplace was getting off the ground. Tell us a little about the role you play, sort of shepherding investors and educating them at some level about what we're doing. But tell us a little bit since your day job and what you're passionate about doing within the FDI landscape.
Andrew Firman: Yeah, so my title I'm the director of partnerships, working with investors, essentially working with the buy side. So spend a lot of my days just chatting with ultra high net worth family offices, foundations, institutions, and really just introducing them to the movement and what we have going on. I think I can tell you we're so encouraged by so many of the chats we have, primarily because I don't think there's any doubt in our mind that this is not something we came up with.
It wasn't a great idea we had, but it is very much a vision God is putting on people's hearts all over the world that have never talked to each other. And Henry and I can tell you, call after call we've had where people just get so excited and they say, I thought I was the only one who was trying to think through this. And so my role really is just let be there to connect the dots and share what the movement is doing. In terms of a lot of the more granular parts of those conversations, it really breaks down into one of two categories for a lot of folks. They are more interested with the functionality that an investor can bring to their investment journey. But with a larger number of people, we are really involved in helping to shape the paradigm that they have in their mind about what it means to be a faith driven investor. And so I can't tell you the number of conversations I've had where it's sort of the Rusty fire where people say I'm all in. I bought into the vision. And what does that actually mean? Do I have to immediately go sell every mutual fund that I hold? Is it a sin if I have an index fund as it is and if I invest in non Christians? Is Christian investing only about certain things I can invest in or there's certain things that I should be excited to allocate capital towards. So a large part of these conversations are just helping people to sort through what does this paradigm actually look like beyond just the U.S.? And then you get from saying we want to be a private investor. What does that look like on a more practical level? And so I absolutely love being part of those conversations. It goes just beyond my investing. But again, really seeing theologically God's sovereignty and providence and how he has designed things to operate. So that's just a lot of my day to day is just going to have a lot of awesome and encouraging chats with investors who feel like God is drawing them to venture into this space.
Henry Kaestner: It's probably a good time to mention the fact of what faith driven investor is and is not and what we do and don't do in the marketplace. So we are not a registered investment advisor, so we don't give investment advice. We don't charge a brokerage fee or no assets under management. We are a ministry and a ministry whose sole purpose is to advance the industry, the movement of faith driven investing, to encourage people to let them know what is out there and that there's content and community that they can get involved in. But it's not to make investment advice and yet is a part of what you do you get. An opportunity to understand what God is doing through the eyes of these investors and how they are called to invest capital and where they have interests, and tell us a little bit about that. Presumably, the range of people you're talking to, a reasonably diverse you're starting to talk to people that are coming in and find advice from overseas people domestically. What are you hearing from some of these people as they're coming in? Is this something they thought about for a long time? Is this new did have general interest? Do they have specific interest? What does it look like?
Andrew Firman: Yeah, really good question. So I would peg a lot of the interest folks have had over the last two to three years, which again, what's encouraging to me is saying more specific timeline is I think it's really clear that the Lord started moving a couple of years ago and we're sort of seeing this groundswell come into focus. So in terms of the interest people have, I've also loved it. How diverse that's been. We have a lot of folks that are in the category of what we might think is a little more typical of a Christian investment. So they want a business that is either abroad, maybe it's in the 10 40 window, maybe it's doing a little bit more explicit gospel work within the course of their business. And I think all of us that the FDE team would say yes and Amen and we absolutely love that. And we've also talked to some other families that have said, look, we just want to see common grace worked out through our investment capital. We want to see companies that are creating a product or offering a service that is trying to better the community that they are in and is just trying to offer up something to help society flourish and to see the gospel within these industries. So what I've loved about seeing this movement grow is it hasn't just been one little sliver of what's possible in the investing world is going to cross debt and equity capital markets. It's been not just in the US, but global. And so it's just been really encouraging to see how God has really tailored people's interests to say we've got some investments that again, are going to be a little bit more explicitly gospel focused. And we've seen other ones where it's really just what we would think of as quote unquote, a normal type business. But it's being run by a faithful Christian entrepreneur who wants to bring glory to God in what they do. So, again, a more specific level. We've seen folks say I'm incredibly passionate about human trafficking and in some region of the world. And we've got other folks saying I'm open to invest in absolutely anything that I want to know that I'm giving my investment dollars to a Christian business owner. And what we want to do, again, as I mentioned, that paradigm is to shape that paradigm to where it encompasses all of those desires that we would all say are good and right. And really what should define what Christian investing actually is.
Henry Kaestner: Some number of people that are listening to this and say, OK, so I think I get this. There's probably opportunities. I've seen people raising money for fair trade coffee at my church or something like that. But this doesn't really feel like something where I can actually think about market return or that I can put a significant portion of my investments in it. What do you finding as you talk to these different companies? And then also there's a real emphasis on professionally managed funds. What are you finding out there in terms of what kind of managers you're seeing, what kind of return profiles? Is it just for the kind of the hobbyist who's just looking to do fair trade agriculture? Give us the kind of sense of the scale and scope of this is such a key question.
Andrew Firman: And I think, again, that is one of the misconceptions. We've seen that in a good way. We've been able to sort of talk through and maybe help reorient their mindset. 10, 15 years ago, the Christian Private Equity Fund world, like we looked a little bit different. We have seen more investors just so enthusiastic and encouraged when we talk them through some of the managers that are now in this space. I mean, you and I could both rattle off some of the top investment banks and private equity firms globally, and that there have been some very key questions involved in those firms over the last few years have split off to run their own funds. And if you were to bet on Christian, what is likely going to be a top quartile fund over the next seven to 10 years? They're going to be right in that conversation. But if you also ask them, can I see your spiritual integration document, they'll send it over to you and you'll see a very well thought out document about how the gospel influences what they do.
And when we look at some of their top LPs, they're very well known names that are not going to aim for second rate quality. They're only interested in the best. So we've just been so excited to see some of the names and some of these top tier managers come into that space. And when you mention quintessential fair trade, Coffeeville, full disclosure, I love fair trade coffee. I just finished up my afternoon cup about an hour ago, so I'm all in on fair trade coffee. I would say Christian investing is definitely not less than fair trade coffee, but it's certainly more. And we've just loved seeing the diversity of industries that these deals have come from. They're not all revenue deals with very slim chance of succeeding. But these are some great technology companies. I mean, just every sector that you could imagine medtech. And we've got some great operators there as well. So on the fun side, we've seen some great managers that would likely pass due diligence with a non Christians portfolio that says we want a market rate return. And we've also seen some operators that are going to non Christian investors would look at to say I would gladly allocate capital to them as well. So the space really has evolved over the last 10 years or so to where we believe you can spiritually integrate across your entire portfolio of public and private markets, every asset, class, debt, equity, what have you. There is a way to see Kingdom Impact and all of those areas.
William Norvell: Oh, that's fantastic. Andrew, thanks for walking through that. And so I feel like we've gone pretty broad at some level. We understand kind of what's going on in the greater landscape. So I'm going to ask you a little narrow here and talk a little bit about the FDE marketplace specifically, which is one of a lot of things we do. But it is up there. And I know you've had conversations with investors about it. Could you tell us a little about what deals are up there, what type of investors should reach out to you if they're interested in those types of deals? Just walk us through the I think it's over one hundred and fifty now, deals that have come on the marketplace that are available to be invested in today. And I believe funds are coming on and mutual funds are coming. So talk to us about that marketplace specific entity.
Andrew Firman: Yeah, definitely. So as you said, yeah, we've got just about one hundred fifty deals in funds combined on the platform. Our Beita should be going live here in the next couple of weeks. So in terms of who should approach us to see about the marketplace currently more for regulatory reasons, it is a credit investor only, but really it's any accredited investor that has a heart posture to enter this space. It could be somebody that says, I've got some dry powder and some capital that I want to allocate next week. It could be somebody that says I really have a heart to come into the space. I don't know when that's going to be, but I want to explore. I want to see the community. I want to see what deals are out there. So anyone in one of those two categories, which again, those are both pretty broad categories, we would absolutely love to engage with you and share what we're doing in terms of the marketplace itself. As Henry said, we're not in our area. We're not a broker dealer. I view what we're doing more as a farmer's market, which is we've got this land and we want to invite in all of these people that we're friends with. So when you look at one of the links on our website, which is a list of our partners, there are a lot of groups that Christians will know of, whether it's in the entrepreneurial space, the accelerator space, and we view our relationship with them as very synergistic. So we might have an investor, maybe internationally, and they follow one of these accelerators and they say, my goodness, I would love to see their deal flow. Well, that accelerator can come and set up essentially a stall in our farmers market where somebody can sort and say, show me every deal that has come through this group. So we view ourselves really as an aggregator of that deal flow and aggregator of the funds on the platform where if somebody wants to say, I want to see the entirety of the Christian investing landscape and what's available to me, the marketplace will be the place where you can see all of that deal flow in one place. And so that's a journey we'd love to walk people through for folks that maybe never navigated private markets before, we have some processes in place where we can see a glide path of helping folks who really don't know what to do and how to navigate these first couple steps. We've given them a few action items to actually get involved and to invest capital. So that is a discussion we'd absolutely love to have. You can go on faith. You're an investor again. Marketplace can fill out an inquiry form and we would absolutely love to have that conversation.
William Norvell: Oh, that's great. And just give a sense, I think in the last three or six months, you've talked to well over a hundred investment groups that are exploring this at some level. Is that fair?
Andrew Firman: Yeah. One hundred with with a lot more on the docket. And again, since our conference in September, we have just seen people left and right saying, as I said before, I thought I was the only one. And if the only direction that conversation heads is letting them know that they're not alone and that a lot of Christians around the world are thinking about this, we view that as an encouragement and a success in this space. So we're just really encouraged to have all these chats. And as I said, I think it's just more credence to the fact that this is not a vision faith driven investor came up with. It is something where we are essentially just helping to guide something that God is doing in people's homes.
William Norvell: Absolutely. That's amazing. You know, as I think back to that first meeting and then the second meeting in Park City and then, of course, we had the conference that ended up going virtual. But I believe a couple of thousand people joined to view the conference and to see things. It's just remarkable what the Holy Spirit is doing out there. If there is any one that does this podcast knows I love quotes and we get so many of them from our host. But when I hear this, I think back to this old C.S. Lewis quote that says, Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another, what you two I thought of as the only one. And I just feel like we have gained so many friends and it's just such a blessing. And I just feel like we get to have that moment with so many people. And you specifically get to spearhead that moment, that day, that moment where it's say, oh, my gosh, me too. I have been trying to figure this out. And I also want to say and humility, we know that a lot of people have figured out a lot better than we are out there.
And so if you're listening to this, too, and you say, oh, my gosh, like I hear you guys talking about this, you're missing this entire section of the market or you you're not thinking about this the right way. This great book, there's this great speaker, whatever, whenever, gosh, we are learning every day, we are learning every single day and we know so little. And the Holy Spirit has been moving in the world of investing for thousands and thousands of years. And so please reach out, reach out to Andrew, reach out to me, reach out to Henry. Let us know what you're seeing out there and if there's ways that we could be helpful and encouragement to fan the flames of what God is doing in your sphere or something you see that's important to you. And you think it's important to the kingdom of God, please reach out to us.
Henry Kaestner: Super was mentioning again, I don't want to belabor the point, but unfortunately, at this time the marketplace is only available for accredited investors. There are just different rules about how you talk about investments with different segments of society. And yet we know that all segments, all folks have an opportunity to be intentional about their faith. There's a great group called Kingdom Advisors. It's out there of people who are serious about their faith, who advise clients. And it's a great place to get started for those that are in a broader segment of society. And then the other thing is, is that as you look at this or any other investment, to be able to go through it with a professional to make sure that this is something that is right for your family is really important. And that's not what we are. Again, we're about a movement and we are about celebrating some of the advances that we're seeing in the space and some of the players in the some of their stories. But the role of an investment advisor superimportant, we just want to encourage you to that end as well. Andrew, it's awesome having you on the podcast. William, bring us to close.
William Norvell: Let's do it. We love to close with the word of God is our listeners know. And so, Andrew, we'd love to invite you into that conversation. Where does God have you today or in this season? What part of his word may be coming alive to you in a unique way here during this time of your life? We'd love to invite you to share that with our audience.
Andrew Firman: Such a good question. Yeah, this is a meditation I have to continually wrestle with in my heart is out of Isaiah. Forty eight, verse seventeen eighteen. It says this is what the Lord says. Your Redeemer, the holy one of Israel. I am the Lord, your God and teaches you what is best for you. Who directs you in the way you should go. If only you had paid attention to my commands, your peace would have been like a river. Your wellbeing like the waves of the sea. And I think what that reminds me of continually is everything in scripture. Every command that the Lord gives us has always, throughout history been for our greatest joy. And I think so often we think of the Christian life. If you think back to youth group days of a list of things that you can't do, and that's just not what the gospel presents and presents this journey that is filled with joy. And so even when I think about what we're doing, I think that's the promise I want to remind people of, is we're not inviting you in on a journey of things you can't do. But we believe we're inviting you on a journey that has greater joy as you're able to see how the law works on this earth. So that is a meditation that is continually on my heart because I continually forget. But I think I also remember that we serve a good, kind, loving and patient on.
William Norvell: Amen Amen, thank you so much for joining us, everyone listening. Feel free to reach out to Andrew at faith driven investor ERG if you want to learn more about some of the offerings of the marketplace or explore this in any specific way. So thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening. Grateful for you. Grateful for the ministry and just grateful for everyone listening. Amen Amen. Andrew, thank you. William, thank you. God bless you all.