Episode 148 - Profitable Public Partnerships for Good with Michael Hall and Tim Hurley
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They say not to bring up religion and politics at the dinner table. Throw business in there, and you have the recipe for quite a complex conversation.
We tackle all three in this episode of the Faith Driven Investor podcast.
We’re joined by Michael Hall and Tim Hurley, two Christian leaders whose private organizations have partnered with public institutions to seek the common good in their communities.
Michael does this as the VP of acquisitions for Launch Capital Partners, an impact private equity firm that welcomes refugees and internationals while promoting thriving communities through a relationship-oriented property management model and community partnerships.
Tim Hurley is the executive director of the Movement Foundation, which is the philanthropic vessel for Movement Mortgage to pour profits back into their communities. The organization focuses on funding much-needed infrastructure, education and support to underserved areas in the U.S. and around the world.
The two join us today to talk about how Christian organizations can partner with the government to advance the common good while sustaining profitable returns for their stakeholders
All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Luke Roush: Welcome back, everyone, to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. What comes to mind when you think about Christians partnering with government institutions? Well, for many, the idea brings up quick responses about separating church and state. Some are understandably skeptical about how these two worlds could even work together. There's a reason people say, not to bring up religion in politics at dinner parties. Well, you throw business in there as well, and you have the recipe for some pretty complex conversations. But Christians aren't called to shy away from complexities. Sometimes we're called into difficult spaces because they might lead to a greater sense of flourishing for more people. That's what happened with our guests, Michael Hall and Tim Hurley. They joined the show today to talk about how Christian organizations can partner with government to advance the common good while sustaining profitable returns for their shareholders. Let's jump in.
John Coleman: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. This is John Coleman, one of your hosts here with Luke Roush today. And Luke looks like he's at his home in Nashville after a lot of travel. How are you doing today, Luke?
Luke Roush: I'm doing great and this is an important conversation that I've been looking forward to for a while.
John Coleman: It is an important conversation and we're joined by two extraordinary people. The first is Tim Hurley, who's the executive director of the Movement Foundation, which supports movement schools, among other things, a charter school network that's been building started in North Carolina, but spreading out around the country. And the second is Michael Hall, who's the VP of acquisitions at Launch Capital Partners. Good morning, guys. How are y'all?
Tim Hurley: Hey, good morning. Glad to be here.
Yeah, doing great.
John Coleman: Well, today we're going to talk a lot about using private investment to solve public policy problems or public problems, and especially partnering with public organizations in the way that we do that as we dive in, given that this is such a unique space. Tim, would you mind just telling us a little bit more about the way that you handle that and what movement schools and the Movement Foundation do?
Tim Hurley: Sure. So I lead the Movement Foundation, which is a foundation that actually derives its profits from movement mortgage. And we do those profits. You know, I would say 95% of them is actually purchased, distressed or abandoned real estate that we then retrofit into a beautiful public school space. And we then rent that space out to movement schools, which is a separate private 1c3 that takes that space, turns it into a great school to serve primarily marginalized communities. And then on the foundation side, we also partner that with the faith based after school. So after the public school day is done, we have a program called Rise Christian after School that the foundation runs for parents that are interested in that.
John Coleman: Yeah, and that's such an interesting model. I know that the integration of faith based programs on the premises of public schools, but outside of normal instructional hours has been something that's been occurring for decades now. And it's such a neat complement to the day to day school life that you all have incorporated. And then building the facilities for these charter schools that run through movement schools is an extraordinary service to those where you do deep partnerships with others. Michael, I know that Launch is a firm that we've talked to here on the FDE podcast before, but maybe to refresh us. Talk to us a little bit about Launch Capital Partners in the work that you do.
Michael Hall: Yeah, absolutely. So we are a impact private equity real estate firm and we sit at the intersection of the affordable housing crisis and the global migration force migration issues. And so we're the largest refugee housing provider in the country. And so we are a for profit entity. We raise the source capital and acquire naturally occurring affordable housing and preserve that housing and seek to transform that into affordable and hospitable housing to welcome in newly arriving refugees and other people who need affordable housing. And so housing is the largest issue facing refugee resettlement in the United States, with only about 15% of landlords are willing to rent to newly arriving refugees. And so we do this in a vertically integrated model. So we manage all our own property through what we call relationship centered property management. So while most landlords are trying to automate and outsource things to apps to third party companies, we're trying to create as much relationship as possible with those new arrivals so that we can help them integrate into a community and meet their your physical and spiritual needs. And so we partner with State Department, refugee resettlement agencies, local nonprofits, and then local faith communities and churches who do work in our partner communities.
John Coleman: And I want to dive into this kind of public private structure where you're not conventional nonprofit, either of you. I mean, Tim you're coming from more of a nonprofit focus, Michael. You're coming from more of a for profit focus but integrated with other entities. Tim, I want to start with you. What made you choose the model that you're pursuing where you do have this blend of almost private sector practices with building and leasing back to schools? You're partnered with government entities. You've also got a conventional fundraiser or philanthropic structure. Talk to us a bit about how that structure works and why you chose to pursue something that wasn't straightforward traditional philanthropy.
Tim Hurley: Yeah. I mean, I spent ten years in more straightforward philanthropy leading Teach for America, where it was, you know, we ran based on the donations of donors who want to see that advance with some government partnerships. You know, on this side, I think the main focus is just the product. You know, my desire has always been to build amazing schools, to serve students, especially our most marginalized students who need it most. And thanks to the governmental structures in place, charter schools are an amazing vehicle for that, where you have this sustainable government funding, but with the opportunity to experiment and do in different ways. And honestly, you know, it almost sounds smarter than I am. You know, God presented this opportunity. He put the same thing on Casey's heart, who found that movement mortgage saying, hey, we want to, you know, use the profits from government mortgage to try to build amazing schools for kids. I know for him, he was motivated by some research he saw on private Christian schools serving the marginalized. And what he saw there was they just didn't last. You know, they were started by a donor, maybe like him, who funded it for the first ten or 15 years. But then really inevitably, they ran out of money and the schools had to close. And so he was look for what's a sustainable model that we can use to pour into kids on the education side. And then also, is there a way to also bring our faith based beliefs to bear also? And that's how we came into this model.
John Coleman: Yeah, that's great. And, you know, Casey has been a part of the FDE community FDE communities before Founder Movement Mortgage, but also tells the story of getting involved with movement schools based on his own upbringing in relatively difficult schools in the Washington, D.C. area, etc.. So I know that both of you have a real passion for that space. Michael, maybe over to you. You guys come from a more explicitly kind of private sector model that doing a lot of the work that many philanthropists reaching out to immigrants or others might do. Talk to us about why you chose the model you did and how that structure helps you to be more successful.
Michael Hall: Yeah, I think when we set out to start and build launch, there was obviously an inflection point where we could go as a nonprofit with the goal as a for profit. And really the decision was made that if we were going to scale and we were going to do this with excellence, that having a for profit model was necessary just because of the amount of capital that was necessary to get involved in real estate, the debt structures that were required that to go the nonprofit route would really be tying our hands. And so I think at the same time, the model that we have works really well. The refugee resettlement agencies have funding for about 3 to 6 months worth of the refugees rent, which de risks this public problem. So housing, these new arrivals is obviously a very pressing problem for communities all across the country. But the problem's really thin when you start looking at it, you start looking at the data that immigrants and refugees, you know, they get employed, they start businesses, they become contributing stable members of society. And it is really just that bridge that's necessary to allow them to get to stability. And so this huge problem is really solved by just giving people a chance. And so our partnership doesn't really extend much beyond agreeing to allow them to come in. So we have some alternative underwriting mechanisms that allow a resettlement agency to place a refugee into our apartment communities. But we do all these wraparound services because it undergirds our investment. And so we get asked all the time, Well, how much profit are you giving up to do this work with these refugees? And the reality is it's actually our competitive advantage. And so having refugees who are in our communities, who are building a community for themselves, they are much more stable tenants than a typical tenant base. So the turnover rate's a lot lower. And all of these things actually undergird the investment by pushing additional profits straight to the bottom line.
Luke Roush: So I think that one of the things I love about the work that both of you are doing is that it's thinking differently. It's looking at problems that other Christians have looked at and thinking differently about how do you solve them. And part of that is just being open minded around the intersection between church and state, which are two things that most Christians see as being distinct and should be kept separate. And yet the reality of how you guys have waited in is actually finding common ground with unmet needs and then building this partnerships. I mean, you've both spoken to it already, but maybe just what are some of the things that you've had to navigate as a believer, wading into that partnership and maybe some things that the agencies that you've partnered with in the government, things that they've had to navigate and that you've had to educate them on in terms of creating this, you know, novel solution to a really significant issue both in education and then refugee resettlement. Tim, let's start with you.
Tim Hurley: Yeah. You know, I think that's a fun question because, you know, really for my entire career that's been working in education and government and throughout this whole time, you know, I've been a believer since a young age. And I think about the misconceptions that I think there are. I think even the idea of like separation of church and state, you know, as you all know, that the really that is the state shouldn't establish a religion. So this concept of, you know, totally separating out church and state, I don't think that's what the law is. And also as a Christian or as anybody with a worldview, I don't think there's a way to separate that out. What I do believe, though, is I believe deeply that the state shouldn't be establishing a religion. So for me, honestly, you know, my journey to my career has just been this desire to build great schools for kids and with education. Like, that's where the action is. It's in public schools. Like that is a service that we provide. And so as I've gotten deeper and deeper into trying to provide these schools and as my faith has deepened, they've kind of just come together naturally on a parallel track. And there's been challenges to that sometimes. But for the most part, I think what your listeners might be surprised to hear is sort of the lack of massive impediments to that. And I think people kind of assume that, you know, if I'm a believer, you know, maybe I shouldn't go down this path. But the other thing is, if you look at our public schools, they are filled with believers. If you look at any governmental agency, it is filled with Christians. And so I think sometimes I think that's where often I hate to say it, but I think the way the media kind of wants to get there, you know, a good story is the conflict. The good story is not, hey, this group has been working together for years and delivering some really good stuff.
Luke Roush: Yeah. That's great. You kind of build a boogeyman in the closet and then it acts as a deterrent for people to actually go down a pathway that's not that hard to go down. So a little bit of that. Tim. Michael.
Michael Hall: Yeah, no, I think Tim articulated it so well and I like what he said is like, I just want to build good schools. And I think that's really the thing that if you are entering as a believer into kind of this public space, trying to solve these public problems, you really have to be able to solve the problem. And if you can, there's usually a huge amount of desire to partner. I think where government entities really get skittish is there's been disingenuous Christians throughout the years who've come and they want the government to fund their ministry while they're not really trying to solve the problem. So they'll have cut rate schools or they'll have, you know, substandard housing. And then they're trying to, you know, kind of hoist their Bible study or whatever that is on top of these communities. And so I think we have to do a lot of handholding with the state actors and these other nonprofits, like we are Christians and we are motivated by our faith. But primarily we're here to solve this problem and that we don't believe in a coerced faith. So we're not going to withhold services, we're not going to not repair someone's apartment or not give someone the same quality education, that if you're really stepping in and you have the answer and you can solve these problems in education or affordable housing, there's just not a lot of good scalable solutions in these spaces. And if you have one, there is going to be a long list of people who want to partner if you're doing that genuinely. And so I think that's where we have to balance that kind of evangelicalism can shy away from giving people the cool drink of water and just want to talk about spiritual things. And if you're legitimately trying to solve people's physical problems, people's educational problems, whatever that is, you know that there's relational bridges that are open, there's afterschool programing, there's believers who are there, who in a relationship of mutuality with the person you're helping, you know, can share their faith, but it's not a bait and switch. I think that's what everyone's afraid of.
John Coleman: Yeah. You know, around our firm. So Luke and I work with a faith based, faith driven investment firm? And one of our core values is that our excellence is a witness. Michael, it's kind of what you talked about. If you're going to do something as a Christian and kind of make that more prominent, we feel there's almost a higher standard of excellence that you have to hold yourself to because you realize that the quality of your work is reflecting on your faith. Right? And it has broader implications. And Tim, I love the way that you summed up the relationship between church and state. People forget that it's not actually a part of the Constitution. It actually was originally raised in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a religious congregation where he was promising them effectively exactly what you articulated, that the state would not impose a religion on others, given that so many people came to the United States or the continent before it was the United States as religious refugees, you both talked about the ways in which this can work really well. Tim, maybe starting with you, what challenges have you run into in these partnerships? And alongside that, have there been any misconceptions that you've had to dispel about faith based organizations with some of the government entities with which you've worked?
Tim Hurley: Yeah. I mean, you know, let me just, I think, relate to that. Following up what Michael said about the approach to the work. So I grew up, I would say I was a school brat, like some folks are military brats where they moved around the military. So my mom, she started three different schools, you know, private Christian schools. I grew up in one of hers in Mississippi. And so I was just immersed in the power of what a school could do and, you know, came out of school, taught back in Mississippi, and then went to law school to study really specifically educational policy. I thought that maybe there are some policy changes that are going to help us build schools. And during summer, around that time, I got to see, you know, what I would describe as folks who were coming at these problems from, let's say, a political advocacy space. So folks who were looking to, I think, on ideological basis drive change. And what I'm excited about this space and talk to some of your investors is what I realize for me is that's not who I am. I'm a builder like my passion. I said there are some laws we could change at the margin about education that might help. But fundamentally, if every law that I thought was good got passed, we would still have the fact there's not enough great leaders wanting to go into education. And we don't have models that actually are proven to work. So I said, you know, that where I want spend my time is let's try to build something that works. And so I think a big problem comes to your question, John, is when people don't understand those different sides, are you going to drive an ideological position or are you trying to build something great? And I think it's different. Temperament is a different approach. And so I think, like Michael said, a lot of times in government, folks want to know, are you coming to just be a test case and drive an ideological challenge or are you actually trying to build something where we have a shared common ground? And I think, you know, Francis Schaeffer had the concept of cobelligerence, right, where he said a co belligerent is someone who I can work with against a common problem as a segue, which from, say, like a full ally, we agree on everything. And so I think there's a ton of space as a believer, like, you know, our view I am a co belligerent against this idea that we are dramatically failing to educate our kids in the way that I think they could be. There's a ton of people who want to jump out side with me if it's I want to drive a specific position on the establishment clause or on freedom of religion. There's a lot of people that want to jump in. So like, what's your primary purpose, I think is something to get clear on at the outset.
John Coleman: One is, You know, Tim, I think I have a passion for education in my own right. And the other thing I'd say is, is people who believe in the truth of our faith, that faith does have a lot to say about the formation of a person, right. About what can make a person healthy, how you can help them grow up to flourish. And I do think that without being proselytizing, the values of that can actually inform the way in which you approach the character formation of kids, in the way in which you educate them in such a way that hopefully as adults, they can be flourishing individuals, that they can craft lives that are greater, especially in these difficult schools, greater than the circumstances from which they come. I have a friend who always says talent is universal, opportunity is not, which I know he ripped off from someone else. But but that's usually true if you believe in the dignity and equality of all people. Michael, how do you see this manifest and what challenges do you run into on the refugee housing side or on housing generally?
Michael Hall: Yeah, I think we're in a lot less regulated of a space. The bureaucratic state in the space that we play is a lot thinner than it is in education. And so our touch points are not, I think, as numerous and so there's not as many friction points. I think one of the largest friction points for us is the fact that we are a for profit entity. The notion of a business who's trying to maximize profit, trying to engage social service providers to solve a problem really is just it doesn't fit a paradigm that a lot of people have. And so it's just taken a lot of time and kind of faithfulness with our hands at the plow of the task to prove that. No, we actually we're not trying to be a slumlord. We're not trying to just get, you know, a couple of months free rent that we actually care about this problem. And so I think a lot of that actually kind of coalesced around operation allies. Welcome. After the fall of Afghanistan, we ended up kind of sitting on several White House formed task forces, Department of Homeland Security, those type of things. And so it was social service providers, government agencies, and then this for profit business out of Louisville, Kentucky, that was sitting at the table, you know, and actually being able to participate in that setting, trying to help solve the problem, doing things that didn't undergird our bottom line, but instead were just trying to help these people, help these governmental agencies, these other nonprofits. They feel very hamstrung. And there's oftentimes things that we can do that they can't do. And so being able to use that leeway that we have as this independent entity to actually help them in a lot of ways has really just kind of lowered that bar. And so I think we oftentimes think, you know, we have this great idea. Everyone should get on board today and we undervalue longevity of a building, deep relationships and a track record of actually doing good work. And, you know, Tim and movement has done that, and I think you're worth trying to do that in our space as well.
Luke Roush: One of the things that's embedded in both of your answers to that question that reminds me of Neighbors prayer, which is the famous Lutheran theologian who prayed God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And I think that, you know, when you get invited into a forum like the White House to problem solve what to do with all these refugees coming out of Afghanistan. My imagination would take me to just a temptation to get outside of my lane, get outside. And actually the mission that God called me on or in your case, you in launch on. And I think the discipline and wisdom to be able to stay focused on what the field that God has you playing on and not getting tempted over into some other field or use the opportunity in that forum to try to make a point or try to advance an agenda that separate from the one that is primary. It takes discipline and wisdom to be able to navigate through that. I love that. And actually both of what you guys shared. I want to go back over to just the big picture. And as you think about counsel that you would have for other investors or other educators who are maybe called in this direction of public private partnership, what would be the counsel that you give to them as they embark on their journey?
Michael Hall: I think when you're trying to solve a problem, you're in this kind of nonprofit governmental space. Some of the fundamentals of building a venture kind of get dropped of what is the value proposition that you think you're actually bringing to bear here. It's kind of, you know, circle back around of do you actually have a solution? Is your whatever your business, your program, whatever you're offering, whatever you have on offer is actually solving the problem people are experiencing, expressing the need for. And so for investors, for venture builders and starters, I would really encourage them of really honing in on are we actually doing what we say we're doing, not overselling what you are actually able to do and. Are we actually creating value for these entities? We're trying to have partnerships with. And so I think it's easy to look at the state as a funding source and not as a customer. And I think in most of these spaces, viewing the nonprofits, you're going to be partnering with the local, state, federal government, as you know, kind of a money grab bag you can go and get some grants from as opposed to a shareholder you're trying to derive value to. And I think that pivot really changes the type of institutions you build.
Tim Hurley: I would cosign everything, Michael said. You know, I think for me, I would recommend I'd say, don't start with trying to build a public private partnership. Start with, you know, what do you desperately want to build for me, for 20 years, I've been chasing this idea that we can build dramatically better schools for the most vulnerable kids. And that has driven me down different lines. And I think that's the fun of it, right, is like, what problem does God put on your heart where you're going to make your impact? But then once you have that, follow that wherever it goes. And I do think it often will go back towards some kind of interaction with government and my exhortation instead of coming in sort of with preconceived notions or pushing back on it, hey, maybe just come in open and say, you know, how can we solve this thing together and then see where God takes you on that path?
John Coleman: You know, I love this conversation, and both of you are operating in areas of such great need, right? On the one hand, Tim to your point, talent is universal. Opportunity is not yet the United States public education system is all too often failing kids. Right? And there are kids who just don't have equal opportunity in that system. And Michael, obviously, this idea of housing, particularly for immigrant communities and refugee communities, is huge. There is a long standing record of Christian individuals or institutions engaging big problems like this, right. I think of the Red Cross, for example, which has been around forever. I think about Habitat for Humanity, where our friend Jonathan Reckford at Habitat, which some people don't realize is an explicitly Christian organization that's been working at the intersection of these problems from a nonprofit perspective, but leveraging for profit models for a while and even at the presidential level, there's been activity here. You know, George H.W. Bush had the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives. As you all look out beyond launch and beyond movement and have done your work, are there models that you've seen? Are there organizations that you've seen that you really admired or other entrepreneurs in these spaces that you've admired that have inspired you in the way that you do business? So our listeners can go find other models that they can learn from as well as they take on their own problems. And Michael, if you don't mind, I might start with you on that question.
Michael Hall: Yeah, you know, I think unfortunately, I think it's a space where the church has shiy away in many regards from stepping in and engaging the state as it's trying to solve this problem. So I'm thinking, you know, I'm racking my brain and most of the organizations that I'm really inspired by have kind of just done it themselves. And they've almost made a parallel entity because the state's not either partnering or is allocating money in those spaces. I think, you know, the comment was made of what plays well on the news isn't always what reality is, and so there's just not a lot of state spending on a lot of these really pernicious social problems of homelessness, of education. And so I think most of the groups that I can think of would probably be in this charter school space. The movement that Tim is in. Yeah.
John Coleman: Well to your point, Michael, I would say just the intersection of those worlds for a moment and then come to Tim, I sat on a big public school board for a while with about 100,000 kids in it, and about 8000 of those kids were refugees, many more immigrants and refugees. It was in DeKalb County, Georgia, which is a very diverse immigration landing spot. And the challenges that those kids would face, you know, there were problems with how the schools were structured, but we'd have kids come from war zones where they had lost limbs, where they'd lost their families, they'd come in at ten or 11 or 12 years old with no prior education, formal education in the school. I think we had something on the order of 120 languages spoken in the schools. I mean, just unreal. And there were structural challenges that would have required community investment, right? No school system is equipped to hire 120 interpreters. No fourth grade teacher is equipped to bring in alongside her other 30 students someone who's never been in school and who's experienced that kind of trauma. And so there really is, especially in these most challenging problems, I think, an opportunity for partnerships that can enhance what can be delivered. Tim, Any models that you've looked at in your history?
Michael Hall: You know, a couple come to mind. I mean, one is actually a group that we work with at our schools there. A counseling program is called C4, C4 for stands for Christ Centered Community Counseling. And so this is a program that was founded by JB and Melinda Bell, who were both black, and they looked at their community. And felt like, you know, when they looked at where the really office around the community were place, they were not in historically black communities or currently black communities. They said, we want to make that available more to black folks because we believe it's beneficial. So they started to build this program for profit counseling program, but with, you know, a very mission driven focus. And so as we look for ways to care for students, that movement schools, they're amazing practitioners. So they actually practice out of movement schools. But when you go see them, say, within the movement school, their context, the social context, they don't counsel from an explicitly Christ referenced curriculum. Right. So they just give you the methods of family therapy, counseling. If you say, Hey, I'm a believer, I'd like to see part of it. They're happy to add that in because that's what they are, but they don't have to do it from that perspective. My dad used the same model. He was a professor at Reformed Theological Seminary for 35 years and ran a counseling practice out of that. And he said, You know, I'm going to work from this frame, but that's not the frame we're in. And I'm glad to actually just counsel you with, you know, what he would call the God given methods. And I think the reference of that is I think our greatest challenges are being addressed by Christians already. Same thing for public school teachers. If you go into most of the traditional public schools that I work in, it is filled with believers. I think there's a question, I think a little bit about music. Like I remember that like when I grew up late eighties, early nineties, there's like the Christian music scene, right? And a lot of cultural arts they got on there because they just like slapped Christian, you know, on that label. But then you look at a band like, you know, I'll date all of us, but right, like U2, where you're like, Oh my gosh, this is just an amazing band. You're like, Wait, But I think they're believers. And then when you read some of their stuff, like, I think they're clearly believers. I think with some of the stuff, it's like, Are you okay with more of a YouTube model where you're just delivering amazing services and answers and, hey, if anybody wants to ask and find out, of course you're Christian or does Christian have to do the finding piece, you know, the most out front piece of what you do or can you let your product serve and then also say, Hey, if you want to know where this come from, it's my work in serving Christ. But if you wanted to go the YouTube model like you were hard pressed to find a social issue that Christians are not already flocking to.
Luke Roush: Maybe speak Tim just because you share this with me before, but about the programing that you guys offer for families that opt into the after school program and movement.
Tim Hurley: Yeah, so, you know, we offer and this is through the foundation separate from the schools just a Christian after school program my kids were part of it. They said it was a combination of Sunday school and recess. So the kids come in and we focus on great homework, help activities, but then also teaching, you know, religious lessons from the Bible. And so it's something we make available for families that want it. And I would say as a family, if you ever want a Christian after school program or you just want good after school program for your kids, like a lot of our families may not be explicitly believers, but they're comfortable with it and they know it's a great value program. So it's like, hey, you know, go ahead, be a part of it. So that's part of what we offer.
John Coleman: One, to your point Tim, you know, what's interesting is the desire for some of those types of programs is, if anything, disproportionate among communities of color and also among less economically advantaged communities. I mean, that's where you find some of the greatest prevalence, actually, of faith, Christian faith and other types of faith. And there's a real hunger for that, I think, in many of those communities. And I imagine the parents are quite excited that that's an option. You guys probably hear a lot of positive feedback, I would guess.
Tim Hurley: You know, we do. And this also I would say that this is the most I ever really talk about the rise Christian after school and movement schools in the same sentence, because really in our practical lived our day to day lives they operate separately and also I think in accordance with the law. So this it's interesting cause this really is the most if you were to follow me throughout my week, I'm not talking about them in the same sentence because they actually run two separate entities, which I think is helpful. And for our movement school families, if you ask them, Hey, did you know Rise actually is run through the foundation to be like, No, I really do. We just run them as separate operations?
John Coleman: Well, guys, this has been a very fulfilling talk. What we're going to do now, I can see Luke getting anxious. His favorite part of the FDI podcast is a lightning round. He will probably ask you about your favorite food in some city at some point, but maybe not. The exciting thing about Lightning around Luke is we never know where it'll go exactly. We're going to do that. And then just be forewarned, the last question we always ask folks on the podcast is just what you're learning through Scripture right now you'd want to share for others. So we'll have both of you after the lightning round, but maybe I'll kick it over to my partner in crime here. First, Luke, I want to dig in and the point of Lightning Round, by the way, is 60 seconds or less answers to questions that are of variable quality. Very highly variable quality, Luke start us.
Luke Roush: The best answers are 30 seconds or less, but no pressure. So I want to know what one thing each of you guys do to unwind and rest and just be renewed.
Tim Hurley: I can go disc golf. It is the choice for the entrepreneurial investors to look at the growth numbers on its amazing golf as peak ball golf as I call it. Disc golf is on the rise.
Luke Roush: Even relative to pickleball.
Luke Roush: Would you look at all the stuff? I wouldn't go that far.
John Coleman: Yeah. Tim, I'm getting a ninties flavor from Tim right now. He was vaguely referencing like DC Talk and Audio Adrenaline.
Tim Hurley: How you knew I was too.
John Coleman: That he's talking about disc golf now.
Tim Hurley: Oh, speaking of DC, talk about seven DC to.
Luke Roush: Get your members and Lee jacket on. It's awesome.
Michael Hall: That's awesome. Yeah. So I love hiking. So if I don't get out in nature in some solitude, at least once a week, I find my mental, spiritual, physical health all suffers dramatically. So hiking, backpacking, that type of stuff.
John Coleman: That's awesome. All right. What is something that you do at your job that would surprise people? Michael, why don't we start with you?
Michael Hall: Yeah, I think a lot of people will chat with me or they'll see me an FDI or a Praxis man or something like that and feel like I'm an investor. You know, just this week was crawling around and making abandoned apartment units, stepping through unspeakable filth, trying to evaluate properties to make good buys and reposition them. So still very hands on, picking up trash, doing that type of stuff.
John Coleman: As the parent of four small children, I feel that I'm crawling around in a dilapidated space through unspeakable filth almost every day. So I can absolutely.
Michael Hall: I got four kids, so I just do it 24 seven. So that's some of it. I'm paying for. Some of it I'm not.
John Coleman: Tim, what about you? What would surprise people that you do at work?
Tim Hurley: So last summer I was following around the snow cone truck. Well, it went to apartment complexes handing out information about the launch of our newest school. So I was slinging snow cones last summer.
Luke Roush: That's good. That's good. Give us one thing that you would say to Christian investors or entrepreneurs who are considering working with the government. One piece of advice Tim to you.
Tim Hurley: Just do it. It's good.
John Coleman: That is a lightning round answer.
Tim Hurley: I can and I like it. He's got it down, I'd say, Yeah, focus on your product, focus on your offering and be excellent.
John Coleman: All right. We got two more lightning round questions, and then we're going to go to the scripture question. I know both of you are very philanthropic guys generally. I know you care about causes outside of the ones that you're working on in your full time work. Is there an organization you'd like to pump up that you think is doing great work that you like to support outside of your day jobs, so to speak? Michael, maybe we'll start with you.
Michael Hall: Yeah, I actually sit on the board of and have worked with for a long time an organization called Scarlet Hope, and they have locations all across the country, but they reach out to women who are in the sex industry or are being trafficked in some way, shape or form. And Rochelle Starr is an amazing founder and leader. And they're doing a really, really, really cool and good work in very dark spaces.
Tim Hurley: Yeah. I mean, I would say your local church. You know, I think giving faithfully to your church and asking if you can give more, there is a pretty good place to start.
Luke Roush: Some of our audience members maybe want to know more either about Movement schools or the RISE program after school or Michael, you know, some folks may want to know more about refugee housing and what options exist for folks and what's the best way for our audience to be able to learn more about your respective organizations? Michael.
Michael Hall: Yeah, FDI did a great video. If you want to see kind of high level, you can find that on the FDI YouTube channel. And then on our website you can fill out a contact form and we'll reach out and be in touch.
Tim Hurley: Yeah, well, if you want to about the schools go to movement schools dot com. If you want to know about rise Christian after school go to rise Christian after school.
John Coleman: And Tim, are there ways for people to get involved in either of those at this point or is it I know you guys are dominantly funding it independently. There any ways in which people can be involved?
Tim Hurley: I'm so glad you asked that, John. Yes, especially for our Christian after school program, because that is a place where we do more traditional fundraising. So if you go to the rise, if you Google a rise, Christian schools would come up for you and there will be a donate link. If it's not up there now, it'll be up there by the time this comes out.
John Coleman: Excellent, of course, the mechanism. All right. You guys have been so great. Let's conclude with the question about Scripture. And Tim, I'll start with you. What is God teaching you through scripture right now that you'd like to share with others?
Tim Hurley: Yeah. So there's an app actually, it's called the Dwell App. Have you heard of the Dwell app? So this is what I would a free plug. It's a you can listen to the Bible on audio. It's incredibly well done, but I've been driving a lot. So I was listening to the Book of Job but it takes 4 hours to listen to it and 75% of that. So three of the 4 hours are jobs. Friends giving him terrible advice and just living there. Job where you just fess up to what you did before God like just admit it or you got to do this or that. And so I wonder why did God choose to make 75% of it? Terrible advice, friends. But my takeaway, because I've had a lot of friends go through some tough stuff recently is like I'm just trying not to be bad guy. I'm trying not to be Job's friend, trying to like Spiritualized explain something I don't understand and be more just the person that says what that and said, I'm so sorry this happened.
John Coleman: It's awesome.
Tim Hurley: That's good. Yeah. I think, you know, as I've journey with Faith Driven Investor and other entrepreneurs and venture founders, I'm just continually stunned by watching some of them kind of grow weary and doing good. And so Hebrews 10:24 has really been resting on me, that is. And let us watch out for one another to provoke love and good works, not neglecting to gather together. And I just that's really, I think, resonated with me in this season of life. And I love that it's so evocative of let's provoke each other, let's pester each other, let's let's stir up each other to love well and to do good things.
John Coleman: That's awesome.
Luke Roush: Michael Hall, Tim Hurley, we are grateful for your presence on the podcast today. We appreciate the example that you guys are setting and what it looks like to partner with the government and address real systemic issues that exist in our society. So we really appreciate the wisdom that you shared and grateful for you being on the podcast today.
Tim Hurley: Glad to be here.
Michael Hall: Thanks for having us.