Episode 126 - Investors as Cultural Influencers with Craig Detweiler and Ben Howard
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Craig Detweiler writes about culture, theology, and technology. He also writes screenplays and produces films such as “Extreme Days,” “Remand,” and “Purple State of Mind” to his credit. Ben Howard serves as CEO for the company which spans feature films, TV, and publishing. Today, Craig and Ben discuss the intersection of business, culture, and media. What role do we have to play as investors who want to impact the world for God’s glory?
All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Henry Kaestner: Welcome back to the Faith Driven Investor podcast. I'm here with my great friend and co-host, John Coleman. John, good morning.
John Coleman: Hey, Henry. Good morning. How are you?
Henry Kaestner: I'm doing awesome. Thank you. I'm doing awesome for lots and lots of different reasons. I shouldn't time guard this, but we're getting ready to go into the Sweet 16 of March Madness and a lot of us are fired up about the different teams that we were following. And I am absolutely one of them. But I'm also really excited about what we're talking about today at Faith Driven Investor. We've talked a little bit about arts and culture and entertainment a little bit. We've had John Irwin on the show, and we've started to explore a little bit about how important it is that we think about making investments in this space, and yet we really haven't gone into it that much. And part of that is because both you and I and Luke are the co-hosts have this background in private equity investing. We tend to invest in lower and middle market companies in venture investing. And and there's a different type of investing that happens no less important, but yet it's different when we think about making investments in culture. And so to help us to get back on track with where we should be in focusing on this very important topic, we've got Craig Detweiler and Ben Howard with us on the show. Craig, Ben, welcome.
Ben Howard: Thank you. Good to be with you guys.
Craig Deitweller: Thanks, Henry.
Henry Kaestner: So we like to give an autobiographical flyover for every one of the guests that we've got on the show. And on occasion, we've got two of them on the show. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to actually ask Ben for you to get started and talk about your background and autobiographical fly over. And then, Craig, if you could just pick up on that, give us a glimpse of that and then bring us into Wedgwood circle, please.
Ben Howard: Great. So excited to join you guys today. I am somebody who's had the privilege of being involved in faith connected entertainment for over 30 years, starting in Christian music long ago, then a step where Bob the Tomato was my boss as I worked with Phil this year at Big Idea and I got to be part of what is Provident Films and be part of what the Kindred Brothers did with Fireproof and War Room and things like that. The Erwin brothers, we hired them to do their first music video, went all the way through. I can only imagine with them and now have my own entertainment company. God has continually given me the opportunity to help creative people do what they do. I have an MBA in an accounting degree, and my goal is if I can help creative people make a living out of what they do and at the same time have impact on culture, I'm very fortunate to get to do that.
Henry Kaestner: And by the way, I should mention when you talking about. Bob The tomato, Larry the cucumber. Phil Vischer has played such a big role in the Faith Driven Entrepreneur ministry that we have. I can't think of any better overview of the identity of an entrepreneur than the way that he is talked to at our conferences. But then I think maybe it's podcast number 20 or so, way back in the early days of Faith Driven Entrepreneur from minute 16:32 to minute 20:30, if our audience goes back and listens to it, it's the best 4 minutes I've ever heard on the most important topic that a Faith Driven Entrepreneur or investor will encounter. And that's the identity that we have. And he did a great job. Maybe we'll link to it in the show notes, but thanks for having mentioned that, Craig. Who are you and where you come from?
Craig Deitweller: Well, Henry, I come from basketball country, but I am not cheering for the Tarheels or the Blue Devils. I actually went to Davidson College.
Henry Kaestner: Oh yes, Steph Curry. Yeah. And you guys almost pulled it out last weekend.
Craig Deitweller: You know what? I'm impressed with what we do with a small school. We are giant slayers is how we approach live. So my background is I came to faith through young life and that kind of wild, crazy, relational approach to understanding Jesus. But I also was rooted in my faith via film and seeing films like Raging Bull, which was this violent, profane R-rated film that it became this cautionary tale. And when I saw that as a kid, it like woke me up and I said, Something's going on here that's deeper and it's getting to my soul. At the end of the film, it says, Once I was blind, but now I can see says it on screen. I was like, What does that mean and what does that look like? And so my life has been a process of coming to see Jesus through these other means and understanding the power of culture to lead people to faith, even in my own journey.
Henry Kaestner: You know, it's really interesting. You mentioned Raging Bull. We had Dallas Jenkins on the podcast a couple of months ago and his dad got his start in the Left Behind series, and he's talking about this background, very faith driven. And his father, despite being in the film industry, said, I don't want my children to watch any movie until they're 13. And then I'm like, wow. So that's maybe austere, but, you know, tell us more about that. And what was the movie that you saw when you turned 13 is like, my dad had us watched The Godfather.
Henry Kaestner: That's not. Not what I was expecting, but he says, you know, it was such a powerful movie and my father wanted to be able to help us to understand the power of cinema, the power of storytelling. And that was. What makes me think I don't know that Raging Bull has the same thing. They both have Robert De Niro, but maybe there's more there.
Craig Deitweller: Indeed. Well, now, since then, I've been both a filmmaker, a screenwriter, as well as an educator. And so I've taught, you know, hundreds of film students over the years, including Destin, Daniel Cretton, who directed Shang-Chi. And now I'm a professor dean of the College of the Arts and Media at Grand Canyon University, as well as president of the Wedgwood Circle, which invests in the good, true and beautiful for the common good.
John Coleman: When Craig, you definitely have the college professor background right now, there are at least a thousand books that we can see on video in the background. Talk to us a little bit more about Wedgwood Circle. It's such an interesting organization with a great mission.
Craig Deitweller: Well, we're actually named after a great entrepreneur, Josiah Wedgwood, who basically figured out how to turn his business, which was Wedgwood China and his art, which is, you know, telling stories through, you know, cameos and dishes. He funded the abolition movement, the abolition of slavery in England through his faith and his business put together. And so the Wedgwood circle is trying to do the same thing and try to help entrepreneurs and business people who want to impact culture. We're like a concierge service to help people navigate these very complex industries that are sometimes hard to figure out. How do you make money in movies? Maybe people know how to lose money, but they don't know how to make money. How would you invest in Broadway? What's it like to invest in a music career? What do artists and musicians need? And so we have advisers, trusted advisers all over the country, people like Ben Howard, who have made money in entertainment in multiple different versions. And so that's why Ben is here. He works alongside us at Wedgwood Circle, helping investors be good stewards of their money.
John Coleman: And Craig and Ben, I mean, that's such a fascinating story. And one of the things that I love is that Wedgwood does have such a broad focus, you are covering different types of cultural institutions in media. Talk to us a little bit about why you think it's so important that Christians invest in these different cultural artifacts and how it is that you came to invest in these, given your early interests?
Craig Deitweller: Well, honestly, it goes all the way back to the garden. You know, when Adam is called to tend the garden, to cultivate the garden. We might think of that as agricultural. But there's also, I think at this point, a lot of us are no longer farmers. Maybe that is important in certain context to understand the importance of water and soil. I love the work that Faith Driven is doing in Africa with entrepreneurs. But most of us at this point are cultivating things like a culture of encouragement and goodness and truth. Maybe that's in schools, maybe that's in our churches, but can that also be in our entertainment? And so we take that cultural mandate and we apply it specifically to the arts where we might invest in someone like Jon Batiste, who you've seen on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert as the bandleader. Wedgwood gave him money maybe eight years ago when he needed some instruments before he was on Colbert. And since then, he's won an Oscar for being on the score for Pixar for their movie Soul. And he's up for 11 Grammys this year, more than any other artist, basically a faith driven jazz kid from New Orleans who just needed a little bit of encouragement and capital to launch his career.
John Coleman: It's awesome. And one thing caught my attention, Craig I think a lot of folks associate investing in the arts with concessionary investing. The fact that you're not likely to make money, you may even lose money in it. But you mentioned Ben has done so successfully. I mean, Ben, talk to us a little bit about what those investments look like from a financial perspective. And is it possible to actually make a return investing in the arts?
Ben Howard: Look, it's definitely possible. And you guys spend your days in venture capital, private equity, etc.. In that sense, it's really no different in that every film is a new business that's starting a new business. And what often happens is somebody will invest in a single film, they'll lose money and they'll be out. And just like if they only did one venture capital private equity investment, it may or may not make money. And so the model has been flawed in that sense. People have not applied, generally accepted investing principles into their entertainment investing now, by no means is that guaranteed that they're going to make money. It's high risk. There's got to be a double bottom line. It's got to mean something else to you. But there are better ways to do it that improve your chances of making money and at the same time have impact on culture.
Henry Kaestner: So talk to us about some of those that's intriguing to me. So there are some ways that you can invest that will increase your chances of doing well financially. What are some of those ways?
Ben Howard: So I don't know your criteria for how you invest, but. I'd start off first of all with a better have a good management team. In other words, if you're going to invest in a film and none of the producers none of the producers really are just shorthand for senior management team. If nobody on the senior management team has ever done this and succeeded, I'm guessing you don't make a lot of investments into businesses that have nobody that's done it before successfully. And so we look for teams for management teams that have at least done it at one point and succeeded at some level, not all of them. There's got to be room for first timers or we'll never build up young producers, young filmmakers. But somebody in the mix needs to have done it before. Another thing I greatly advise is don't ever be 100% of the investment. Sometimes somebody comes in and they fund a whole, you know, the entire film, an entire project, whatever medium we're in. I'd say never be more than 50% and always put your money. Besides, other smart investors reap the benefit of their experience and what they've done before. If you can just do those two things and let's make an assumption that we've decided we have some money and we're spreading it over multiple projects. That would be another piece. But you've really enhanced your chance not only of getting some of your money back or all of it and or profit, but you're also at the same time having incredible impact on culture. So we really do go for kind of double bottom line.
John Coleman: That's excellent. You know, there are a lot of areas of investing that are like that, Ben. And you're right, I think there is a portfolio approach to anything that comes with a great amount of risk, which strikes me very much like venture capital. What I find interesting is that this is so unfamiliar to people. They often do need someone to hold their hand or to guide them through entering this new area of cultural impact or investing in the arts. And Wedgwood and you all and people like you seem to play that role. How does Wedgwood serve investors in that way, and how can people get involved in the organization in order to get more familiar with how to enter this space?
Craig Deitweller: Well, this kind of education that Ben's providing now is something that we do for everybody, right? You express to us what you're interested. Maybe you're interested in Broadway. And then we're going to try to connect you with some Broadway producers who've made money, maybe producing a show like The Temptations Show on Broadway. So you have points of reference, trusted advisers who can explain to you how the business works. We do that at least once a month with situations like this where we're doing calls and, you know, bringing our members together. But we also do it in person. You know, we're going to have gatherings. We're going to be in Nashville in November for our 15th anniversary around Veterans Day, November 9th, 10th and 11th, I believe. And that's a chance to gather with like minded people, meeting like minded artists and filmmakers and storytellers and figuring out how to just almost in a matchmaking service. Right. Getting to know people that you can trust that you're comfortable with who have just both your interests, as well as the interests of getting that story out there.
Henry Kaestner: Can you talk a little bit about some of these stories that you've seen? And it could be on Broadway. I mean, you mentioned The Temptations side, but our audiences can be familiar with some amount of the work that you've done. And obviously, way back to Bob, the tomato and Larry the cucumber. But walk us through maybe some of these movie projects that you've done recently and maybe not at liberty to talk about every aspect of how the deal was structured or what the waterfall was back to investors, but make it a little bit more tangible for us. Help us to understand how some of these productions that we might be familiar with got financed and how they did.
Ben Howard: Yeah, you know what a great example would be? Blue Miracle. Blue Miracle is a film that people can go today and watch on Netflix. That's a project that we put together last year, actually three years ago. So it got put together, filmed a couple of years ago. Netflix debuted it last year. First of all, it had a producer team that had done this before. My producer partner on that, one of them was Darren Moormon. Darren has done a number of things in the faith world that a lot of folks would be familiar with. Same kind of different as me was one of his projects he and I worked on Indivisible together. But so first off, back to kind of my criteria. Here was a management team, a producing team that had done this before. Our next step was to find some fellow investors. Some investors in this Provident Films came in. They are like minded. Endeavor Content is a company that wanted to have a part in this world Fair Trade, media, Mercy ME's record company. They came in. So here we had people that all of whom had had success in the entertainment business who are now investing their money through in a great story, inspiring stand up and cheer, a story set in an orphanage in Mexico about being on the ocean. It was a great script, a great story, and then add Dennis Quaid to the mix. So we know now people choose to see movies, often based on the talent. And so we knew that was a critical piece of the puzzle. That movie got greenlit largely because of the management team around it, the producer team around it, the story itself, and then the talent and talents key a lot of time. People in this faith world at times try to make movies with talent that nobody knows. You know, it's okay. It can work. But generally, if you want to help, your chances of succeeding with an investment, have talent that causes people to want to tune in and or go to the theater. So those elements really came together, Henry, and got that movie greenlit, got it made. And then that is something that was sold to Netflix for a profit. So everybody made their money back, made a little bit more money, and we're putting the next one together right now.
John Coleman: You know what I love about that example, Ben, is historically a lot of people's perception of Christian entertainment is totally separate, right? There's Christian music, there's Christian movies, Christian television shows, and it's almost like a bubble. And, you know, we're commanded to be in the world, but not of the world. And with Blue Miracle and some of the other projects like American Underdog that we've referenced here, those were wide releases that really touched a lot of lives outside of the traditional Christian bubble. How do you think for artists, or investors about navigating being in but not of the world and trying to have a broader cultural impact?
Ben Howard: I personally and be real interested in what Craig says about this as well. I think when we view redemptive stories, let them be just that. Don't make them all be the same thing. Don't make them all be a conversion film. Don't make. Don't have a formula they all have to fit. Tell great redemptive stories. Be a story of forgiveness. Might be a story of inspiration, etc.. Lots of ways to go about it. Then make sure we give them in the film what audiences expect when they go to theaters and talking about theaters. But obviously some movies will go streaming television directly. Use people with credibility, use directors that are known to the audiences, talent that's known to the audience. These things to me give it a relevance that allow us to have something that gets outside of just the immediate Christian audience in the people who we can open their eyes to things they may never have thought of before. But to do that, we do have to be relevant artistically.
Craig Deitweller: And I think even back to my own experience as a kid, I maybe didn't have enough of those Christian influences that were coming into my life. I needed a young life leader to take the risk and walk into my world, into my high school. And I feel like it's the same thing with our living rooms. It's the same thing with our movie theaters. It's the same thing with our cell phones. We need to be involved with technology and storytelling and do all different kinds. And so when I see a series like Sweet Magnolias on Netflix, it's run by a woman named Cheryl Anderson, who comes from a deep Lutheran faith. She's going to infuse those values in that series across maybe one, two, three, four or five seasons. And it's not going to preach at you in an obvious way, but it's going to model maybe some behaviors that your family can talk about and invite you into that screen family in a way that builds a bridge that maybe a traditional Christian film maybe can't do, that it's too strong for some people who are more in an exploratory stage.
John Coleman: So what are some of the other things that you're excited about in the faith driven area right now?
Ben Howard: So one thing I definitely want to tell you about is the story of Auntie Anne's pretzels we learned of Ann through your podcast. That's where we first go away. We've got to know where we've pulled together a group of people and we already have funding to have a script written. And so, you know, you earlier talked about a project that might get its beginning here. Hey, there's one that's already had its beginning here.
Henry Kaestner: How encouraging is that? Wow. That's awesome.
John Coleman: Henry, how long until we get a bandwidth and Henry Kaestner script? How do we get that going?
Henry Kaestner: Oh, man. Yeah. You've got to have an incredible heroine like Auntie Anne and so we've automatically disqualified ourselves. Ben That's really encouraging. And Craig just that's awesome. We endeavor to be about content and community on this podcast, understanding that stories are the way that God brings us in and weaves this into the bigger story of what He's doing in this world. And for you to take up the story of what God has done through Anne's life, and for us to have it just a small part of it for you to hear for that story. Gosh, yes. That's an incredible encouragement. And I cannot wait to see how you all work with that. That's awesome. I don't know, John, if that gets us, does that get us an invite to the premiere?
John Coleman: What I really want is a year of free Auntie Anne's pretzel, I feel like that would be the big reward.
Ben Howard: Yeah me too
Craig Deitweller: Yeah, they're really good.
Craig Deitweller: So Craig, you've written some books on just culture. You're also a theologian and you've studied the subject and you speak to the just the influence of technology. Tell us about what you're seeing in culture over the last 15 or 20 years. So how you interacted with culture is different when you came to know about Christ in young life, and that's continue to expand. Just give us a fly over. What are you seeing and what are you seeing for the next five or ten years? What do you think culture is going to be about? What's a role?
Craig Deitweller: That's a great question Henry. Huge question, really. I think Christians were awakened by the success of something like The Passion of the Christ, and then you see it being replicated in a different kind of way through crowdfunding and something like the Chosen Series. And so there is a broad appetite that is really in some ways international for I would call it timeless biblical storytelling. But I'm also excited about what I would call the new voices, both the new voices of Christianity that might be coming from the two thirds world and then also might be telling us these stories that we haven't maybe seen before and giving us back a sense of the difference that faith can make. So there was a gentleman named Lee Isaac Chung, who is a Korean immigrant. He went to Yale to study to be a doctor and fell in love with filmmaking instead. And he told a story last year called Minari, which was nominated for six Academy Awards. Brad Pitt gave him the million bucks that he needed to make the film because it was so touching and so real and it dignifies faith. It talks about the complexities of what it means to be an immigrant in America. And so it's almost giving us back that kind of Hollywood film of the thirties and forties, like a Frank Capra kind of film, but filtered through the 21st century of what that maybe outsider experience of faith and culture looks like.
John Coleman: You recall an essay by a wonderful writer who was a Christian, Flannery O'Connor, perhaps the greatest short story writer of the last century, where she effectively talks about how a great story shouldn't be easy.To summarize that, you have to let the characters in the story drive themselves rather than just having a point. And that seems so relevant. One thing I've noticed with a lot of the redemptive films or TV shows recently is how they are so story and character driven. And it feels to me like a lot of Christian filmmakers and writers have actually embraced that, as you all are outlining the power of redemptive stories and of weaving themes rather than leading with a message. As you look around the landscape, you've mentioned Broadway. We've talked music, movies, TV. Where do you think there's a gap right now? Where would you say that Christians investing in culture or entertainment is most needed right now where there isn't.
Craig Deitweller: What do you think, Ben?
Ben Howard: I don't know that I'd pick one because I think they're all relevant medium and that people of faith are underrepresented in all of them. I would say I think probably the music business has benefited the most from investment of larger mainstream companies into it. But I'd say in all of them we have work to do to bring up new, young, creative folks with a worldview compatible with what we're talking about, to have impact on culture.
Craig Deitweller: My answer would be, I think we need more Christians involved in tech. We need more people like Henry, because those are the folks who are defining kind of the screens and the content and how things are distributed. So I think we have enough schools, whether that's, you know, Belmont in Nashville, whether that's Grand Canyon in Arizona, there's enough schools educating young people in how to tell transformative stories. I don't think we have enough executives who can give those green lights, who are savvy, business minded folks who have that ability to say, I want to see this on the big screen or this on the small screen or this on my phone. This is what I want to listen to. It's what my family wants to gather around. So we need more, I think. Faith driven entrepreneurs to get into those boardrooms and get into that decision making.
Henry Kaestner: All right. So you got me going. So building off the culture, the things that you've seen, hitting on technology. Let's look at the metaverse. What is the future of Christian entertainment content? Is that something we get involved with, or is that just like just such an alternate reality? It takes us away from the way that God designed things. Give us a perspective.
Craig Deitweller: Yesterday I was looking at a 4D technology that was being used to train officers in simulations, high risk situations, and the technology they were using had come from video games. Right. So we need more Christians involved in technology, making video games, building out the metaverse to figure out how to create this online world that is good, true and beautiful, and that has the possibility of the common good. And so at Grand Canyon, I'm pushing the university as fast as possible to say, Hey, you've got this great online reach. You need to create online classrooms and you need to create virtual simulations in this technology. They could create a virtual version of me in 10 minutes, like a 3D model version of me. You can make me dancing, do whatever else you want in 10 minutes. That's what's possible in this new technology. And so we need more people who can understand how to control the box, if you will, with the power at their fingertips really is.
Henry Kaestner: If you could make me dance in 10 minutes, you get a buyer. My wife Kimberly will spend a lot of money on a product like that.
John Coleman: I think the next podcast is exactly that. Henry We need to meet in the metaverse here, and we'll all have dancing avatars. We'll have our Oculus.
Henry Kaestner: There will be a first.
John Coleman: You know, we've talked a little bit about this medium from the investor side. But if you are an artist with a great idea, if you're someone with a great vision in tech, it can be difficult to meet those and connect with those who are going to finance those projects. You know, often those folks are not terribly commercial. It may be difficult to communicate your idea. Coming at it from the other perspective. What advice would you give to those who have a great artistic idea or even a great technologically enabled idea in order to connect with those with capital to make that idea reality?
Craig Deitweller: Well, isn't that the core of what the faith driven network is trying to build? And that's really what we're building at Wedgwood Circle is an on ramp with people who can vet projects and say, this is viable, but have you thought of it this way? Or, you know, maybe retool it a little more with this in mind. Right. People who understand the marketplace matching up with these faith driven artists, that's what we do best at Wedgwood is try to connect artists to capital. That's what you're saying, Wedgwood.That's what we want to do as well. What do you think Ben?
Ben Howard: Yeah, I totally agree with you. And I'd say most film makers, most artists have their first project be something that they probably funded out of their own piggybank or with their own parents in that. Just go do it. You know, the Kendrick brothers are fond of saying their first movies were run, chase and shoot movies made with a camcorder in the woods. And I really think that's important. And that's not just for people of faith. It's how we exercise our craft. We just start doing it. And if we do it in a great way, a lot of times that's what starts to get attention. So that's what I would say is go do it.
John Coleman: We've talked a little bit about some of the successful projects that you've worked on, Ben and Craig, but are there some new artists out there and new projects that you're really excited about that you'd want to put the spotlight on now that you think could make a big difference?
Craig Deitweller: Should we talk about the Boylan's and what we did it at Grand Canyon, Ben?
Ben Howard: Yeah, let's talk about the Boylan Sisters. Why don't you talk about it from your vantage point?
Craig Deitweller: Oh, well, you know, how many times have we seen, like, sort of the Christian football movie, right? There's all kinds of versions of that. So it's all these guys making movies like, Hey, guys, Christian guys will love this. Well, what if you had some women who were saying, what about the girls? Right. Who's making films for young Christian women or for mothers and daughters to interact? And Ben Howard introduced me to these two amazing sisters.
Ben Howard: The Boylan sisters are Andrea and Alexandra. They're originally from the Northeast. One of them currently lives in Wisconsin and one in L.A. And they're gifted storytellers, and they have incredible hearts for God, incredible hearts for young girls. And I came upon them about a year and a half ago here in Nashville, where I am. And they had a script and a story. I found out they'd made five movies and their investors had gotten paid back on all of them. And look, as somebody who's seeking to make business out of entertainment, that's gold. And so we immediately started to work on that next project. Their admittedly low budget, their previous projects that I was aware of had been up to half a million dollars. That's a low budget. So we up to that, we went out in the more million dollar range and put a plan together and I intersected with Craig about that time and he was just making the move to Grand Canyon University. We were looking for a college campus to make our film on. We ended up making a movie at Grand Canyon in January. And let me tell you, Phoenix in January is a great place to be. These sisters, in my opinion, are God's answer. Not that he's been requested to answer this, but to the Erwin brothers and the Kendrick brothers. We now have the Boylans sisters and as Craig said, it's like they've got a story and a heart for women and for young girls. And it made an incredible, I think, what will turn out to be incredible comedy, family film, teen film called Identity Crisis that will hit the world later this summer.
Craig Deitweller: And it's really designed to get women and their daughters talking. Right. It's about a girl who has a personal identity crisis. As a freshman in college, she feels like she can't keep up with her engineering major as well as her, you know, her social life. And how do you do that? Well, she figures out how to clone herself. And so you got two versions of herself running around. It's a lot of fun. They ran all over the Grand Canyon campus, but it was fun for us because we got Wedgwood investors involved at work on the financing. We think they're going to get their money back, which means they're going to want to do more. And that's how it works, right? Tell them good stories, making sound business decisions so people can continue to work on their craft and tell their stories.
Henry Kaestner: For people have listened to the podcast for a long time, you know that we always end the podcast with the same questions. I'm going to give the two of you a heads up as to where this is going. We're going to ask you at the end of this. What are you hearing from God in his word? Maybe it's this morning, maybe it's this week, but sometime recently that has encouraged you. It could have something to do with what we're talking about. It could have something completely different. Okay, that's where we're going. That's not where we're going to get started. We're going to get started. We're going to bring back a feature that Luke and I had brought in six or seven episodes ago, which is kind of this lightning round of questions. And so each of you is allowed to answer. You had to keep your answers to less than 15 seconds. And then we are, of course, will close off with what are you hearing from God and his word? Okay. Number one, what story in the Bible do you think needs to be told next? So many characters, so many stories. What one is ready for the big screen next?
Ben Howard: Craig.
Craig Deitweller: Ben.
Ben Howard: You know what I've loved? I've always loved the story of Gideon. Nobody's ever made a movie about a guy up against long odds with very little resources, and God made him do it in a way he never imagined.
Henry Kaestner: Good answer.
Ben Howard: I love the story of Gideon.
Henry Kaestner: Craig. It's going to be hard to top that.
Craig Deitweller: I agree. That's why I'm going to say we should do Gideon.
Henry Kaestner: Not very original, but maybe it just maybe that's where it all started to start out here on the Faith Driven Investor podcast. Tell us about the origin story of that blockbuster movie that's called Gideon. Okay, number two, tell us about you have interacted with lots of famous people, lots of folks that we've seen on the silver screen, and many of them are motivated by their faith. Give us one story of somebody that most of our audience is likely going to be familiar with their name, at least. Whose faith has inspired you? Oh, I hope there's somebody.
Craig Deitweller: Yeah, well, there's actually. There's so many.
Henry Kaestner: Oh, good.
Craig Deitweller: Which is kind of amazing, I would say. Patricia Heaton and her consistent witness in sitcoms over the decades. Really impressive.
Henry Kaestner: Okay. For those of us who may not be as familiar with Patricia Heaton's work as there may be Robert De Niro's, help us understand where she's been.
Craig Deitweller: Everybody Loves Raymond.
Henry Kaestner: Oh, there you go.
Craig Deitweller: The middle. Right. She's kind of America's mom and has done that as a person of faith with grace and aplomb.
Henry Kaestner: Oh, it's awesome. Great answer. Great answer. You've redeemed yourself from the last one, Ben.
Ben Howard: Great answer. Yeah. And then I would offer Dennis Quaid. He's the guy who I've got to work with a good bit recently become friends with. Dennis continues to choose projects that fill a void in terms of what our culture is hearing. And I don't just mean faith, but just projects. He plays Ronald Reagan in the upcoming Reagan movie that I think will hit the world next year. And he's taking roles and upping the ante, if you will, into messaging and stories that our culture needs to hear.
John Coleman: All right. I'm going to hit you with two more self-interested questions. We're all living in a world where after COVID, I streamed entirely too much in terms of TV and movies. What's the best movie or TV series, Faith Driven or Not, you've seen over the last six months? And why?
Ben Howard: Yeah, I'm going to throw out the one that's probably among people I know always talked about, but maybe you guys haven't hit up on it yet. But it's Ted Lasso and it's Jason Sudeikis. It's on Apple TV and it's about kindness and goodness and doing good. And it's not a faith per say, but it's all the things that come from faith. And so I love that show and I love how I feel when it's over and the way I want to live when it's done. And if that doesn't define faith driven content, regardless of who's making it, I don't know what does.
Craig Deitweller: And I'll go for the flip side of that. On the same network on Apple Tv+ the morning show really deals with the complexities of sin and the long tale of how bad choices continue to maybe spin you out and have a ripple effect. And so I think for businesspeople interested in ethics, it really shows you how important it is to do the right thing, because when you do the wrong thing, it gets really bad in really devastating ways for all of those around you.
John Coleman: That's good. I am also a lover of Ted Lasso, but now I've got a great recommendation for the morning show. I'm going to hit one last one, which I expect Henry Kaestner to answer as well, because I know Henry has a classic interest in this subject. Who's your favorite musician of all time, and why should a person of faith love that musician as much as you do?
Henry Kaestner: That's great.
Craig Deitweller: The Boss, Bruce Springsteen. I'm that guy. I'm that old guy. I saw him probably when I was, you know, 16, 17 for the first time and fell in love. And, I don't know, working class songs meant something to me. I was a working class kid, and he gave me a sense of hope that you can maybe get in that car and get to the other side. And so going from North Carolina to Hollywood, that's a big, big, long drive. But I think the Bruce Springsteen gave me a little bit of courage to hang out on that Thunder Road.
Henry Kaestner: Get a wife and kids in Baltimore. Jack, I grew up in Baltimore, so I always got me. But man, born to run, there's no better pump up song for me ever.
John Coleman: Well, talk about a musician who's a storyteller, right? Those songs really tell the story of working class America. You're right. All right, Ben and Henry, what do you think?
Ben Howard: You know, I mean, I'm The Avett Brothers through and through who come from Henry's territory. If you're from North Carolina, these guys sing of truth and of love and of pain and vulnerability. And I love The Avett Brothers.
Henry Kaestner: All right. You've blessed us with that. I don't know The Avett Brothers. I've heard it. Well, I've heard of them. I can't tell you name of song, but I'm going to go to that. I've got two for our audience real quickly. One is U2. I actually sponsored the first ever academic conference on the Christianity of U2 lyrics. It happened at North Carolina Central University way back in the day and was fascinating just to hear about their spirituality, where the streets have no name, of course, is talking about heaven. Still haven't found what I'm looking for. Just a great seeking type of song. There's so much there and the Christianity of their lyrics and I love that. But one of the things I've done recently is I've gone back since. I like a lot of secular music too. I've started to borrow some of the greats from the 1970s, which is I'm a child of seventies and adopted them as my own, as praise and worship music, whether they are praise and worship or not. And an example of that, which I encourage our listeners to check out, is Ain't Nobody by Chaka Khan, Ain't Nobody Loves Me Better.
Craig Deitweller: Right.
Henry Kaestner: And I envision that is a praise and worship song. It may. Or may not have been designed that way, but that's what I would leave our audience with. John. I want to turn the tables back to you. Give us one.
John Coleman: Oh, gosh. I didn't know y'all were going to turn it on me. There are so many out there I'd almost have to go by genre, but for the same reasons you highlighted with Springsteen, I think guys like Johnny Cash are really interesting just telling the story of America and how you build from that. So I'll stop with that one for now. But there are too many to name for me.
Henry Kaestner: Well, okay, so now we're closing this off and I'm getting some great comments in from our producers here that and we could go on and on about some great music acts. We're going to do that for the next segment. This has been awesome. I can't wait to have you guys back on the program. We are going to close out as we do every one of our episodes and ask you what each of you are hearing through God in his word.
Ben Howard: Yeah, I'll jump in. That one was immediately came to mind for me and I'm continually reminded that we're not alone. And I don't just think God's presence, but we have a cloud of witnesses, we have a body, we have others around us, and we don't have to do this by ourselves. And I am so thankful for that.
Henry Kaestner: Amen.
Craig Deitweller: I've been struck reading about the parable of the four soils, if you will, the seed. And I think about it for entrepreneurs. I think about it for pastors. The fact that Jesus basically said, hey, if you got a 250 batting average, that's biblical. That's like all time. Like one out of four is about as much as you can hope for. And so for investors, it's like you might have been burned and for pastors, you might have said, why did those people walk away? But that's just that's the biblical average. And so we shouldn't be surprised if 75% of our our efforts feel like they were wasted and got choked out and didn't manifest in the way we hoped. But that 25% is can be pretty beautiful.
Henry Kaestner: I think you're very, very right. I thought you were going to the parable of the sowers there too? And I'm going to just leave this as an encouragement to our audience on the Faith Driven Investor podcast and the parable of sowers. Of course, if you listen this podcast the odds you haven't had your faith snatched away by being scorched or by birds coming in and get, so you're likely have gone through that. But mine and John's encouragement and along with Ben and Craig, I'll presume, is that we might be able to soldier through the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of riches to get to that type of faith driven investment return of 160 or 30 fold. And that's what this podcast is all about. So as you know of folks that you think might be encouraged by episodes like today, give us some feedback, too, and say, listen, if you ever do that whole thing where you ask people about their favorite music acts again, I'll never listen again. Or if you think that was great and you've got some other suggestions on things, we might ask our guests, let us know. And please just take this to your communities. Whether it's a Faith Driven Investor group, whether it's a Faith Driven Entrepreneur, a group that you might launch with your church, there's never any cost, there's no catch, there's no upsell. Here we are a ministry and we get fired up about telling stories like Ben and Craig's. Thank you for listening in. Ben Craig, thank you very much for being with us.
Craig Deitweller: Thank you, Henry.