Episode 197 - Nothing to Fear, Nothing to Hide: Brent Beshore's Viral Letter
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When Brent Beshore penned his annual letter reflecting on lives disassembling around him, he never expected it would resonate so deeply with business leaders and investors across the country. His invitation to step into "nothing to fear, nothing to hide" relationships offers a refreshing counterpoint to the isolation that often accompanies success in today's achievement-oriented culture. Through his 30-year investment horizon at Permanent Equity, Beshore demonstrates how faith-informed patience might just produce better returns—both financially and humanly—than the standard "buy, lever, strip and flip" model.
Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.
All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Brent Beshore [00:00:00] The broader culture is the worship of mammon. I say mammon and not just money because I think it goes beyond just money. It is an idea of self- Reliance.
Justin Forman [00:00:09] And designed to be dependent. Have the hardest time accepting that idea.
Brent Beshore [00:00:12] Absolutely! We are tricked into believing that freedom... Looks like being independent and not in need of anything. The irony is that true freedom is found in Christ. He says, my yoke is easy and my burden is light, but you have to submit to him everything. If anything, I am way more excellent at my job as a follower. Than I was as an atheist. If you're shooting the lights out and you're making tons of money and you are sacrificing your family at the altar of success, you are losing. Yeah, you got a yacht and you have no one to enjoy it with. A driven entrepreneur.
Justin Forman [00:00:48] So often in today's world we think of everything for instant gratification and short-term results. But what does it look like? To have the long-term perspective in mind, to maybe even think about something that might last. Beyond our lifetime. Today we're at South by Southwest, a special gathering here in Austin, Texas. To talk about this topic. With Brent Beshore and Richard Cunningham. Let's go ahead and get started. With our conversation. Hey, what is it like to have South By here? Like, do you normally flee Austin? Do you normally run from this place?
Richard Cunningham [00:01:21] Mixed bag. So I grew up in downtown Austin. It is an incredible, like you can feel the buzz in the air. It kind of reminds me of like a college football Saturday. For like a week and a half of having South By in Austin. I will confess because Marshall, my wife, and I live downtown. We've had this like tendency in the last few years to be like, all right, South by is coming. That's a lot of traffic. Cunningham's will exit. We'll go make our pilgrimage to Breckenridge or something like that.
Justin Forman [00:01:41] Like that ski, or the Holy Land. We're talking pilgrimage, you gotta talk Holy Land!
Richard Cunningham [00:01:45] Um... But it's special, and then when this whole Sunday service thing started a couple years ago... There's this dynamism of like, wait, we can plant a flag for Jesus in the midst of all of this. Not that he needs us to, but what an opportunity to, to say, hey. So many people are coming in. From so many different kind of. Cultural mountains. Film entrepreneurship, investing. What have you, it's like the- networking event of all networking events. And someone had a brilliant idea to be like, you know what? Let's do something faith oriented. And it's been really special to see the church kind of gravitate around that, so.
Justin Forman [00:02:16] I think it's been special to see it gravitate towards it, but I think its like. We were just with John Irwin when the House of David stuff was kicking off. Just to talk about his idea of just like, hey, it's not that Hollywood left Christians, Christians left. What I love so much about this is like. In a time where people in the church would be known to run. Like the church is pushing in, the church is pushing into this conversation. And man, we're seeing.
Brent Beshore [00:02:41] Can we just take a moment? House of David is so good. I mean, like. I-I-I texted Coleman. And I was like. Oh my gosh! Like this is a real show, like it like not like a like a almost there, but like. House of David was something that independent, like the cinematography, the writing. The entire thing like everything was It was incredible.
Justin Forman [00:03:02] I didn't know Gandalf was making an appearance as Samuel. Who knew?
Richard Cunningham [00:03:06] Samuel is a beast. He is not to be messed with.
Justin Forman [00:03:09] He's so much of a beast, like my 11 year old was like, that was a little weighty, that first scene, or that first episode. I loved it. I loved too. I loved. But I also didn't. I was like let's go. Let's go!
Richard Cunningham [00:03:20] They're working on something John's talking about. How cool would it be? Like you know when you see on Amazon? And you're watching a show and it like flashes the actor who's in that scene or something like that. Of how cool would it be. To see House of David flash the scripture and the verse where it's like, did Samuel actually? That guy and like that brutal. And it's like, yeah, there it is right there in first or second Samuel. Of Samuel doing that exact thing, and how cool to drive people to the Bible through House of David, so.
Justin Forman [00:03:46] Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to remember who was it that was talking about this, about scripture engagement, and they were talking about it. Maybe it was Bobby that was just talking about just... Or somebody was coming in, they were doing the data analytics, and they were looking at it, and they're like, man, why did... I don't know what the chapter was they were referencing had some huge spike. And they're like, oh, well, you know, the chosen last night covered this passage. And how cool is it that we're in a place where you can see the cause and effect of those things? Kind of hitting like that. That's a fun treat to see those things.
Richard Cunningham [00:04:14] Adds up to cool stuff. Brent, you're in Austin, coming from... The middle of america man beautiful columbia missouri You found me. I am the unicorn. I'm a Stephen F. Austin high school graduate in Maroon's oldest public high school west of Mississippi.
Justin Forman [00:04:30] High school batting average was?
Richard Cunningham [00:04:32] Don't worry about it. We're not here to talk about that. We're here to about Brent B. Short being in Austin, you're speaking at a big South by event tonight. Permanent equity has just had, it feels like the Lord's hand of favor on top of it. Give us some of kind of the Brent Be Sure 101. Bring us up to speed on where we are right now because your story is so powerful. And I know you can go in a bunch of different directions where you get into a bunch that. But maybe kind of give us some of the lay of the land. And we'll just pull on a bunch of different threads.
Brent Beshore [00:04:56] Yeah, I'm married to Erica 16 years now. We've got four kids. We thought we were done after three. I joke that. My son's the Chuck Norris of children. He battled through a vasectomy and 240 plus your parents trying to prevent his pregnancy. So what a legend. He's amazing. I'm not sure what the Lord is going to do with him. But he is he's gonna be on fire. The kid came out. He was like the happiest most joyful. He is incredible. Silas I can't I just can't tell you what an absolute blessing and I mean the reality was when I was an atheist I was a thesis in my 20s. I didn't ever want kids They were I looked as an impediment to my success to it would be a lot of work. I got in want that It was all about me and uh... It's amazing how just over and over again, I married my wife because she was hot. I started the business because I wanted to get rich. The Lord uses my sin and for my good in His glory, which is what He promises, but man, I just never knew and it's amazing. So it's amazing.
Justin Forman [00:05:50] No, no, isn't it? I mean, isn't that fascinating? Like, again, it's our brokenness that he often uses most. I mean, we're hearing that, we are seeing that, we're seeing that in the stories. I mean, we're seeing it in places like South By, or even people that are coming to Christ here recently. It's like, there's just that point. Where like, we've seen the facade, we've see everything that's there, but it's our brokenness. It leads it back to it. That's one of the things I just love. Just about the way that you talk about that, always so candidly and consistently.
Brent Beshore [00:06:16] Yeah, I mean, I think it's by His wounds we're healed and by our wounds, we're able to heal others. I've seen Christ through us. But I've seen it so clearly, it's in our areas of greatest weakness and areas of greatest sin, usually. That is where we're able to bring healing to others. I mean, I think that. The lie is that whatever you're battling... Whatever you've got hidden underneath. That is so ugly, no one's gonna love you if it comes out and that you're the only one battling it, right? That you're somehow a freak. That you're the only one who's ever had that issue. And I mean, that's what the enemy wants from us, right? Cause it keeps it hidden. Uh... You know if the darkness grows uh and and unless you drag in the light it's the only disinfectant like there's no other disinfectant You've got to confess it to God, and you've got to confess to others. Um, I've just seen over and over and over again in my life.
It's it's, you know, I I got a computer put in my room when I was 10 years old. I looked at pornography every day of my life. Right? Um, the amount of deep wounding that that created. I didn't even know it was a problem. I remember, I mean, telling my now wife, I remember we were dating and She found out I had looked at pornography and she was like, oh my gosh, like. And I was like, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Like I didn't think there was anything wrong. I thought it was healthy. And in fact, if you read a bunch of like, you know, the, the quote unquote, modern health science behind it. It's like, oh, pornography's good, pornography's healthy. I can tell you. Uh, no man who looks at pornography is healthy. You just can't be healthy. It's not how God designed this. It is a cheap imitation of a beautiful gift from God. Right? As Christians, like, we're not anti-sex. Sex was made by God. It is beautiful. It's just like a fire, though. You put it in your fireplace, amazing, warms the whole house, super enjoyable. Put it in the middle of your living room, you burn the house down, kill everyone. It's the exact same way with pornography. So it's things like that that I've now been able to say, hey, look, and by the way, I'm still in a battle with lust every day. I don't want to give the impression it's like, hey. I'm George W. On the aircraft carrier saying mission accomplished behind me, right? Like, we've still got a long war. There's a long war ahead of us. But I can tell you that. When I am. Open and honest about where my struggles are, open and on us about who I am. That I am in real deep relationship. That's where healing, incredible freedom comes from. That's what the Lord made us for.
Richard Cunningham [00:08:29] You put this in an annual letter. So you close down 2024. Shared a bunch of reflections. This particular kind of thread you're tugging on about the open transparency and honesty and realness about sexual sin or just getting things out of the darkness and into the light. Has been viewed. Just an absurd clip right now, so tell us about just kind of the wildfire spread of this like vulnerable letter you put out there for the public on LinkedIn and Twitter and everywhere.
Brent Beshore [00:08:53] Yeah, I mean, I felt convicted, you know, every year. So I write this, I basically write one thing a year. I should write more.
Richard Cunningham [00:09:02] You're giving yourself a hard time, because I'd follow you closely on Twitter and you put out some absolute things yourself. Oh, okay. You write small amounts.
Brent Beshore [00:09:07] Small amounts, yeah, yeah. They're a little bite size, but I write like one long thing a year, and it's the annual letter. And it's very odd to have an annual letter uh... That is both mixes personal and professional And I feel very called to do that. And so every year I just try to pray and Lord, what do you have for me? What do you want me to say? And it's funny because I start that process in like September. And nothing happens in September. I keep chewing and chewing. I'll start a couple of times and just nothing happens. And this year, it was about, oh, mid-November. And to be honest, what... Really convicted me was I saw more lives fall apart. I think in the letter I called it the unplanned rapid disassembly. Of so many lives, whether it was adultery. Addiction issues. Mental health breaks criminal activity. I got more people that reached out to me in the last year and said Hey, can we talk? Wow, man, when I get that text, you're like, Oh, Thumbs up. And get on the phone, and somebody's life's a mess. It's just an absolute wreck. And you start asking questions about it. Okay, when did this start? How did this happen? Almost inevitably every single time it started small. It was benign, it was just a little thing here, a little there, a little corner cut, a little season of life. It was just a little fun, a little flirtatious text. One extra drink, it's not a big deal, and then all of a sudden... That slope gets slipperier and slipper and then you compound over time.
And maybe it's just my age, right? So I'm 42. I feel like there's a way to get in trouble at 42 that you just couldn't get in at 25. Like you have enough enmeshing of relationships and there's enough people counting on you. That at. 25, you just don't have that at 42. People are counting on you. And so I just watched over and over again, you know, people around my age and their lives just blowing up. I felt convicted to say, hey, I've got a front row seat. To this brokenness and the shrapnel and the maiming that is just awful. I mean, lives being destroyed, families being destroyed. And by the way. We forget these are not like, yeah, it's not fun for the individual person. We're talking about generational consequences. I mean, I can tell you in my family... Um, my uh, and. Died in a car crash at 16 years old. Um, let's see here, six years before I was born. And I've lived my entire life in the shadow of that in my family. And it was a horrible accident. Um, It things happen that caused generational scarring and this generational sin that I think. If you look at most of the patterns, certainly the same patterns in my life, it comes through generations. And so I think that the, you know, the question we have to ask ourselves is if we're gonna live in the darkness. And we're gonna tolerate sort of the acceptable sin that we think we have. Really what we're doing is we're perpetuating generational sin and eventually it blows up Like even- the smallest unrepentant sin becomes big enough eventually and leads us into dark places. I just saw.
The consequences of it over and over and over this year and I just felt. Called to say. To people, hey, you gotta live in the light. It's scary. Look, we all wanna matter and we all want to belong, right? That's what we're all seeking, right. You cannot. Belong unless you're in real relationship. And so we pretend, we wear these masks to each other and we pretend like we're in a real relationship when we're not. When I ask you, how are you? And you say, I'm good. How are you? I'm good. There's nothing for relationship there. If you're good, you know what I'm thinking? Shoot, he's good. Like, he is actually pretty convincing. He's good, I'm not good, but I can't say I'm good. So what do we do? We keep it hiding, right? We gotta kind of retain things back behind the wall. Getting into a real relationship is scary because the lie that we tell ourselves, whether we hear from the enemy... Is that if people really know you, they wouldn't love you. If they really knew who you were, not only would they not love you, they don't like you. They wouldn't want to be around you. They wouldn't want nothing to do with you. And by the way, you're gonna end up alone. The weird part is you're already alone if you're not in a relationship. I don't know how many. You know, I'm going to say men because that's who I really go deep with and who I know. I don't know how many men I've known. Who th- they're not known by their wife. Like they're in a marriage where they don't actually know, they don't know their wife and their wife doesn't know them. They have kids. They share a life together. They are strangers living in a household. I think you see this come out. People are like, oh, we. We fell out of love. Well, how does that happen? The night as you know each other right So I think the thing that, in that letter... By far, the letter's been viewed so many times, it's amazing to see how much it's spread. And the part that was by far the most. Clipped, the most referenced, was nothing to fear, nothing to hide. And that was the message, right? To call people into it and say, Hey, look. The alternative is not worth it. The hiding that you think is tolerable isn't worth it. You have to be known.
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Brent Beshore [00:14:59] You have to confess to God, you have to confess to others, you have to get into a relationship. The most incredible freedoms on the other side. I can tell you. When I started becoming known. I don't think I fully appreciated how much darkness was in me. And I mean, this is the Christian walk, right? When you first become a Christian, the cross is really small. It's like a little step stool. You just need a little help up, right, middle class in spirit. Lord, yeah, help me, but you don't actually see the full weight of your sin. If you did, you'd be destroyed by it. You know, now, let's see here, I don't know, 12 years in. 11 and a half, 12 years into my walk with Jesus. And it's like, man, I'm more aware of my sin now than I've ever been. Like if you ask me, how am I doing? I'd be like, I've got stuff I've gotta really work on. I want to be in known and in relationship with that. That's actually where you gain freedom. So I think it's just very counter-tuitive. I just see... Most people, I mean. Henry David Thoreau says the massive men lead lives of quiet desperation. I mean, this is not, he's secular. He's not a follower of Jesus. I mean this is just a widely known thing. Of course. Everyone's hiding, everyone's masking up, everyone is pretending. And we're going through life numb. I mean, if you numb the pain, you're gonna numb the joy. You can't be in, if you're not gonna have a depth of emotion, a depth relationship, there's no depth of joy, there's not depth of happiness, there's depth of anything.
Justin Forman [00:16:20] Why don't you talk about this? You talked about how it went viral and it had that traction, specifically the section. But I think it's also the audience here, right? Let's talk about the realities as entrepreneurs and investors. Like, you're always selling somebody. Something. The perception of it. Like, let's pause for a moment here to say we've seen the church, we've seen the brokenness, we seen church leadership challenges. There's often times when I think about like. Some of his first gatherings and megachurch conferences and other things. What you wouldn't do to be able to go back 25, 30 years ago and say, hey. Let's bake this in from the beginning. Yeah, we got to make sure that we understand this. How important is this in this moment? When we think about fund managers, when we think about entrepreneur scaling and growing. The stories are getting bigger. The crashes will get bigger too if we're not careful. How do we bake that level of vulnerability? Into this. Movement into this conversation.
Brent Beshore [00:17:16] Yeah, well, I would say going back 25 years with the... The big gatherings, like there's not many pastors who have survived. I mean, if you look, there's very few pastors who you would say were well-known pastors 20, 25 years ago, even 15 years ago. Who've made it. Almost all of them have fallen. Well, how did they fall? They fall because they weren't known. And by the way, whether you're a pastor at a church or you're the CEO of a business or anyone, you don't even have to be in leadership. As you become more successful, it's more isolating. And that doesn't matter what line of work you're in. I mean, my heart goes out to a lot of these guys if you look like. I remember getting- given a number of books when I was first becoming a believer. By people who were these incredible inspirational people. I would say 80% of them have had some huge fall since then. Now it doesn't invalidate what they said. But man, it would have been so much more powerful if they had said, hey, I'm actually in this act of struggle. I need to be known. I think that the formula is the same for everyone. If you're not actively in a relationship, if you're being known, if you don't have anybody in your life who can tell you no. You are screwed and you just don't know it.
Speaker 6 [00:18:25] I don't know it yet.
Brent Beshore [00:18:26] And so yeah, the audiences, I mean, fund managers in the financial world, I mean let's be honest. The entire financial world represents a microcosm of what the broader culture is. The broader culture the worship of mammon. I say mammon and not just money because I think it goes beyond just money. It is an idea of self- Reliance. You know, the opposite of faith is not doubt, it's self-reliance. Like if you think about what the enemy really wants us to believe. Is that we're self-made men
Justin Forman [00:18:53] We're designed to be dependent, but we have the hardest time accepting that idea.
Brent Beshore [00:18:57] Absolutely, and we are tricked into believing. That FREEDOM! Looks like being independent and not in need of anything. The irony is that true freedom... Is found in Christ, which is he says my yoke is easy and my burden is light. But you have to submit to him everything. Everything I am and everything I have has to go in. Before you can gain the freedom. And so I think that this is the upside down kingdom that we live in, but when we look at the world, it looks right side up. And you look and I mean, I, I'll confess like. I'm tempted! You know, I mean, I've spent, um, I spent. Earlier this week. At a high-end investor conference. These people are the best in the world at what they do. And everyone is talking about all their wins. Talking about how much money they're making, they're talking about what they're buying, they're taking about their third vacation homes. They're talking about how they're going to do this and conquer this and and then you look in their eyes. And there's this deep sadness. And everyone sees it, but no one wants to acknowledge it. Because man, we can put this nice shiny veneer over the top of it. And so, yeah, the audience, when I wrote my annual letter, I felt very called to write it to a financial, for the most part, a financial audience. Maybe it has broader appeal, but I go into quite a bit of technical detail about the financial side. But to say, hey... If you think you're winning... If you think that that's going to be the way to life and life abundant. You're going to do what I did, which is you're gonna catch the car hopefully eventually. I mean, there's only two types of people, right? There's these people who think, okay, if I only had that, then my life would be complete. Or the people who actually get it. And it tastes like ashes.
Speaker 7 [00:20:37] Yeah
Brent Beshore [00:20:38] And that's what I did, that's my story. That's my story.
Justin Forman [00:20:40] And I think there's something so much like we, oftentimes we flip on the TV, we watch sports and let's face it, it's been an amazing run. The last couple of months. Are you talking about the Chiefs? Well, we'll talk about the Chiefs, but it's an amazing one that most of those Super Bowls, most of the games, it ends with the soundbite of saying. I just wanna thank God. Yeah, there has been revival sweeping through. There's been revival. Man, some incredible work. Steve Centrum, Professional Athletes Outreach. FCA so many different ministries a long obedience in that direction chasing after the
Richard Cunningham [00:21:07] Chasing after these athletes is so cool.
Justin Forman [00:21:09] Chasing after to say, how do we help serve and disciple you for those moments? But one of the things. I love. Is like, you've heard the story of Riley Leonard. We heard all the story on the ascendancy. When you lose that game. And you praise God just as much. And losses. As you do the winds, that's hitting on what you're talking about. That's what Patrick Mahomes did. Yeah, he loses the Super Bowl and he's
Brent Beshore [00:21:30] Thank God for that.
Richard Cunningham [00:21:32] Me as much as I'd. Hate to say it here in Austin, Texas. I mean, they are my bitter rival, the Texas Longhorns. Quinn Ures, Michael Taft, Jade Baron, all of their studs got in the post-game conference and they Jade baron the DB stopped the interview after so I was like, hold up. I need to say something, like, Jesus is good. Regardless of us just losing this game. We always say it after we win, because we win a lot. But we just lost in the Koshuel playoff. And I need to acknowledge. God's goodness and the opportunity to do this.
Justin Forman [00:21:59] I think it's beautiful, and I think you're hitting on something, Brian. It's just like, just... We are surrounded by the world's trappings. And like, we are I mean like the fiercest parts of the battle. Are coming to the footsteps of entrepreneurs and investors. Everything the insecurities identity and there's always something no matter what conference you go to There's always somebody that's like, man, you know what? They got it, if only we can get to that point. And like, it's when do we put to death the comparison? How do we put to death a comparison? Step into that moment of contentment. It's a struggle. Right? Like every single day. But I think it's worth it. Builders Investors that aren't ever satisfied, always looking for that next improvement. How do you pull that in tension with?
Brent Beshore [00:22:47] I think that, for me, I think God calls us into excellence because He's the God of excellence, right? And how does the enemy work? He takes what's true. I mean, the devil doesn't pop out in horns and a cape and, you know, that's what, I mean the depictions in the movies, right? Like the enemy is going to look like an angel of light. Like it's going to look like it's right and true. And so, I mean, I was raised in a culture where competition was good, like you go out and try to win, winners win. Competition and being competitive with one another, I think is. Excellence with a twist at the end. Right? So I think it's good and right and true that we try to be excellent. It is not good and right and true when I say, I am excellent because I put you down because I beat you. And therefore I can be above you. Anytime we're trying to elevate ourselves. Above anybody, I think that's where we're off track. And for me, this has been revelatory, really in the last three or four years for me. I am so competitive, like if you, if you like. When I have lost the plot. I get incredibly competitive. I'm gonna beat everyone, I'm going to win all the things, I'm to do all, I mean. That was. Unconstrained, that was my life in my teens and 20s. And there's a feeling that rises in me that's so dark. And it's anxious and it's insecure. It's, I'm never going to be enough. I'm never going to have enough.
There's no amount of winning that satisfies it. So you just keep competing and it destroys relationships. It eats you up inside. But I've realized recently... Wonderful to be competitive with yourself. It's wonderful to say. I am pleased with what I did there, and I'm thankful that whatever the Lord provided, but I want to be more excellent because I wanna do everything unto the Lord. And no matter how I play, if I win or lose... Isn't the point. It's how do I play? And usually when I can get myself into that position. Turns out I actually win a lot more. But the difference is, instead of me being like, yeah. I won. I'm over you, I'm the winner, you're the loser, I am like Hey, that was a really fun game we played. And I mean, I think this works the same way in business, right? Like, I feel the inclination when I'm around fund managers who are managing more money than I am, doing bigger deals, going faster. Man, I am not doing as well as they are. Like that, that feels terrible. Like I'm not. Then I'm like, wait a minute. The Lord has called me into something. Independent. Of any of those games. All I'm called in to do is do what he's called me into. Be obedient. He's going to give me. What I should have. I will never have more than what the Lord wants me to have. I'll never have less. And I am a steward of whatever he wants to do. While I can get myself into that, I actually play the game way better. There's a grain to the universe. If we actually go with the grain of the universe, things typically go better. Job can happen. Things can happen, bad things happen to good people, right? I'm not trying to, this is not prosperity gospel. It is also true that Proverbs says a lot on this topic. Like to the hard worker, to the diligent, to the wise. Go a lot of the spoils that the world would call good. The difference is we get them to receive them as a gift, we don't earn them, we're not gaining them. And that's the big difference.
Justin Forman [00:25:55] You know, there's, I'm reminded of a video that we showed this year in the Faith Driven Investor Conference is the one on Roy Ellis when we talked about the cathedral-like thinking. And I think that there's something that we've. Whether it's what the narrative has been in business or investing other it's like oh man it's quick hit oh Why didn't you start your first business from 17 and exit it by 21? Why haven't you done this, why haven't done that? The quick, you know. Business flip, but when you think about this idea of just a long-term in mind, because that's what you're getting. Like what does it take for us to get to this cathedral? Thinking to live for something beyond our lifetime. I love that story. That just says, man. When we look back in history. The great. Cathedrals of our time. The stories of like, God and his church there, they took generations. To build. And what does it look like for us to kind of get back to that cathedral-like thinking? In a society and culture that values so much the short term. I mean, you've. You're in that space when you think about the long term whole.
Brent Beshore [00:26:56] Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, as followers of Jesus, we should have the longest time horizon of anybody. Like our time horizon is eternity. And if we really believe that the more the people who take. Eternity most seriously, but the people who take this world most seriously too. Like, you know, it's not the only two things that are going to survive or the Word of God and the… the souls of men, that is escapism. That is not what the Bible says. The Bible says, heaven is coming back to earth. There's an incredible short story, I highly encourage anybody. To read it, you all to read, it called Leaf by Nickel. And it was written by J.R. Tolkien, so this is one of Tolkien's essays. And it's this really interesting concept, like I think niggle. Is Tolkien. Because if you read biographies of Tolkien and how he developed his world, I mean, he developed the whole languages, all the languages of Lord of the Rings first, right? Which, I mean, it was a painting, it was decade long process to develop the languages. I mean you wrote out entire languages before you ever got into any plots, before you got into character development, right? You wrote out languages. It took him forever. To write. Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit. And Leaf by Niggle has this really, it's a beautiful concept. And I, again, highly encourage you to read it, which is. There's a painter. Niggle who could only, he had this vision of this grand tree that he wanted to paint. It was like the tree of life. That's kind of how I interpret it. In his lifetime, he could only get himself to paint a single leaf on it. Just a single leaf. And he beat himself up about it, and the enemy got into his ear and said, "'You're worthless, you're no good. "'You can only paint this leaf.'" I think that we do the same thing, right? He passed into eternity. And he sees... The tree that was in his mind, that one leaf has been transformed into the entire painting, it's affected the world, right? So the things we do now get carried on and perfected into eternity. And so. The cathedral thinking is, okay, you don't build a cathedral in a year. I mean, cathedrals sometimes took. A hundred years, fifty years to build, right?
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Brent Beshore [00:29:46] For me as an investor, you know, the standard model in private equity is what I call the by lever strip and flip model, Get tenure fun life. It takes a couple years to buy stuff, takes a couple years sell stuff, so really you got three or four years at most five years to own something. It's just impossible to develop. Good long-term strategy. Great long-term relationships. Make good long-term decisions when you've got that time horizon. It's impossible to make. Good long-term relationships, good long term decisions with short-term capital. And so I think one of the things as followers of Jesus we can do is continue to push the time horizon, which is really hard with investors, as LPs. You're trying to tell an LP like, hey, give me your capital for 30 years. I had more than a few of them say you're a complete idiot, which is also true, but just maybe in different ways. There's no way. I remember one guy, we were at a family office in Florida. And we thought we were getting investment from these people. The CIO came in, and he's like, asking all kinds of questions. At the end, I was like, are, you know. What do you think? You seem pretty interesting. He's like, Oh, I would never give you our money. And I was like, Wait, what? I was like, why are we here? I mean, we flew down our whole team, like we spent all this money and time to come down here. And he was like oh, I just wanted to meet the guy who was even asking for 30 years of capital. I was like that's What are you talking about dog and pony show man? It's brutal.
Justin Forman [00:31:02] There's no way, right? You get validated parking on the way out? Yeah, exactly.
Brent Beshore [00:31:05] Yeah, exactly. His logic was, he was like, hey, 30 years from now, he's like, you're going to be on your third wife. You're going have a bunch of step kids you don't even know. Like you're gonna have vacation homes all over the world. You're not gonna care about what you're doing. And I was like, man, that is such a, well, at first I was like, that seems like an oddly specific.
Speaker 6 [00:31:19] Yeah. Correction.
Brent Beshore [00:31:21] Um, but beyond that. I think that's a point of view which basically says, hey, the only things that you can really count on are in the short term because everyone's gonna go off the rails. And you know what, for most people, that's probably true. I mean, you and all, you, and I have. Probably all of us have seen this. Most people cannot continue to stay focused on what they're doing and and and a life happens and things go off the rails I think this is the idea though that We can really. Focus on these few things that we can do right and true and be unconcerned about what they mean into eternity because we are trying to build the cathedral over a long period of time.
Justin Forman [00:31:54] It's fascinating. I mean, can you imagine being a cathedral builder? Like, hey, I'm just gonna build up to this part. I don't know who's coming along behind me. I'm not sure. I don't know their name. Maybe I'll train them as an apprentice. But somebody else is gonna build the top half of this. And I mean, just that perspective shifts. Yeah, you got it right.
Richard Cunningham [00:32:07] Yeah, you got to write yourself in the story. Yeah. You put yourself in a perspective of like, this is no longer about me. It's about the cathedral.
Brent Beshore [00:32:14] Investment partnerships also aren't built that way. Like, if you look at most investing firms, they are just pure partnerships, right? There's no lasting value that's being created. I mean, it's kind of like a brand that you kind of come under. But there's nothing enduring about that. That's why these partnerships break up all the time, right? Um I think that you can build, I mean, this is one of the things that I'm excited about with permanent equity. I'm trying to build permanent equity... Not as a partnership, not to say we don't have partners. But as something that's enduring that stands for something that hopefully we can have stewarded into generations to come. Which is a very different line of thinking than saying, hey, you and I are gonna be partners. Eventually, we're not going to be partners. We're going to try to bring some other people in at some point. They can choose to be partner or not. But there's really nothing enduring about the structure.
Justin Forman [00:32:58] There's nothing enduring about it, but, you know, I- It was interesting, somebody was talking about this in terms of... I think the example was in politics is sometimes there's a candidate that like you're charging down a path. But you might not agree with the candidate that's needed to turn the car in the opposite direction. To plant the seeds of going a different direction. It might be a short-term season, but then the question is who's going to take that baton, right? And so, I mean, I hear the idea. That in a short time horizon. You can't finish the task. But you can plant some seeds to that. And I think that there's an incredible rebirth of people that are thinking with that mindset of like, hey, how do we? Let me plant seeds into that, but I'm fascinated though, and I kind of want to approach it from the idea of like, hey, what? Unique opportunities are there. In the long-term hold. To look at things differently, whether it's the mentorship, the culture development, the team structure, the... The generational mindset of not looking for the quick fix person but somebody that's thinking with the long term in mind. I think that there's just so much opportunity. When you talk about the long-term. Cathedral-like mindset. To think about spiritual integration. And think about ways that we can bake this in. And it's not. And again, there's some that are planting seeds, and there are some that planting seeds and they're also the same person harvesting. And that's what you guys. Are in the business of. What are some of the things when you look at it, when you think about... Maybe not where it is today. But even just thinking about in the next 10, 20 years, as this conversation matures. How does a long-term hold increase those opportunities to take things deeper?
Brent Beshore [00:34:32] Yeah, well, and I think at the very core, we're not a forced actor. So if you talk to most private equity. People. And you ask them, like, what are their biggest losses of their career? It's really interesting. I've done this quite a few times, almost inevitably. They don't talk about the deal that went bad. That's what you think, right? You think they'd be like, oh man. We had this zero. 10 years ago, it was a zero out. Like we thought it was gonna be this incredible thing and just. It detonated. It's actually not what they say. They say is. What really kills me. The biggest losses I feel like are the ones that I knew were gonna be incredible long-term compounders. That we were forced to sell. And so, yeah, I think that by the nature of having long-term capital, it gives you the option. To not to have to do anything. And again... You know you plant a seed using your analogy you plant seed if you keep digging it up. As soon as it sprouts, you're gonna kill it. Right. It just, it just can't sustain that. I think there are good reasons to sell and bad reasons to sell. So I want to be clear, like permanent equity is not one of these firms that would say we would never sell. In fact, I had the pleasure of having dinner with Warren Buffett. And it was. Phenomenal evening, three and a half hours, there was five of us. And I got to ask him, I came with like loaded, it was probably awful. I'm like his nightmare. But I like. I came in like loaded with like 40 different questions. But one of my main questions was I was like, hey, I just want to understand like. Don't you think that there are companies in the portfolio that you have? That would be better off owned by somebody else. And he's like, absolutely. And I said, well. Why wouldn't you sell him he's like because I want to be able to go to the person say I've never sold anything and I'm not going to sell your baby right. And I think, look, I think the ethos behind that is good. I think that the practicality of it is.
There are different seasons for different stewards of different assets. And there's nothing that's more holy. About you and I saying, Hey, even though we're not the best owners of this thing. We just need to own it because selling is somehow bad. In fact, if any owner occasionally, you know, I'll get this question from a seller. And they'll say, well, you're never going to sell my business, right? I didn't say that. They're like, whoa. If you're gonna sell it, then why don't I just sell it to the highest bidder? And I said. Wait a minute, is there something wrong with selling the business? Yeah, I don't want you to sell it. You're selling the business. They're like, oh, well, I said, so can we agree? What's the idol underneath? Yeah. Can we agree that there are good reasons to sell and bad reasons to A great reason to sell is there somebody else who would be a better steward of the asset. Somebody else who could carry on forward that legacy. And I think that gives you the optionality to do it. But there's also a lot of reasons to hold something, not only to make money, but to endure the culture, to be able to reinvest in relationships. I mean, the hardest part of doing what I do is for sure the first 18 months. Because the default assumption, no matter what you say, no matter where your track record is. Default Assumption from people who don't know you is. They talk a big game. They're going to come in. First week, they're gonna say, ah, okay, niceties aside, now the ax comes out. Now we're going to grind on you like... You never believe be possible, right? It's funny because we'll tell people during due diligence, just operate the business the week after as you did the week before. Two days after closing. Hey, so what do you want me to do this week? I don't know. What were you gonna do this week? They're like Well... I don't know, I mean, just do whatever you're gonna do. Without us. And they're like, well, there's really no catch. What do you want to know? I don't wanna know anything right now, I just want you to be you, just operate. Do you need any help? No? Don't need any help? Call me if you need something. I'll call you if we need something. No one really believes that.
So the first 18 months is this like testing of exploration of trust. And there's a lot of opportunities to get sideways. I mean, any relationship you can get sideways, so I feel like once you clear 18 months, especially three or four or five years, you start to get into this really nice rhythm of. High trust, expectations, know what's going on. That's really the beauty that the speed can really accelerate because you have that trust. Now think about that compounding for 10 years, 12 years, 15 years, right? I mean, I still own the business I bought 15 years ago. The relationship I have, her name is Jenu Molly. Is phenomenal. I was talking with her a couple days ago. We're dealing with something really difficult right now. And. The ability for me to hop on and say, hey, how's your daughter doing? She's like, oh my gosh, you know. My, my, my youngest just started driving. I'm like, you're gonna start driving. I remember when she was like one, you know? Um, we've been in relation for 15 years. What does that business do? It's a military recruitment firm, so we help the military recruit. Hard to get. Kind of across different series.
Justin Forman [00:39:15] Hard to get people sounds a little suspicious for a record. I think we veer off of that.
Brent Beshore [00:39:20] Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like one time I was at a national defense. Event and I sat next to a woman and I was like, Oh, what do you do? She was like, I work in the Middle East, and I was like oh cool, like get more specific. And she's like, are you new here? And I was like, I am, how'd you know? And she's like... Yeah. Can I just give you a pro tip? Sure. She's like, when people say they work in the Middle East, don't ask more questions. This is not the place to be.
Speaker 6 [00:39:43] Yeah.
Richard Cunningham [00:39:44] We don't post on LinkedIn. No, that's hilarious. So get specific on both sides of the permanent equity equation. So you're buying these businesses. I think we'd love to hear about some of the businesses because i saw the amusement park transaction and we gotta get into that And then the other side is you're kind of hinting at the family office in Florida who laughed you out of the room and was like, I'm not giving you capital for 30 years. Talk about because you're deploying out of a pretty sizable fun right now that took an outside capital. Talk about that partnership with the investors who have to kind of reorient their thinking around. The long-term hold. And hey, in- three to five years I'm not going to see a liquidity event in one of these businesses sells. Traditionally, in your model, there are opportunities for sale. What does that look like? How are you guys bringing them into the mix and saying, hey, this is an opportunity for. Cash flow and for all of these other things that comes with this. So kind of break down the strategy from both sides of the aisle if you will.
Brent Beshore [00:40:31] Yeah, maybe you started on the capital side first because it really enables us to do what we do, right? If we had a traditional two and 20 structure, 10-year fun life, we just couldn't. Make the promises we make, we couldn't do the things we do. Honestly, I probably couldn't sleep at night, which is by far the most important thing right getting a good sleep Um You know, I feel like our. Our structure. It really selects for incredible investors. Because when you go to somebody, most people would say, hey, we want to take your money for 30 years, like. They're going to tell you no, and like, no, just straight off the bat. And by the way, it's a very common, it just outside of our mandate, we can't do it, you know, and we always say, of course, it sounds like they're bad people or anything. It's they have a mandate. They have constraints on their capital, they can't do it. So it's a very rare investor. That can give you capital for 30 years. By the nature of that, their longer term, their higher relationship, they're excited about the long term that we are. Um... So I feel like we've got. Some of the best investors in the world, the people who think like that. It's just rare. And so WashU, their endowments, our anchor investor, Scott Wilson and Adam and Andrew and the whole team there. You know, it's been a beautiful partnership, and I tell you what. Know, COVID hit, I just want to tell you a little vignette, COVID hit, and no one knew what was going to happen, right? If you guys knew, then you should've told me. Um... No one knew, and look, I had fears, and I remember calling up Scott and I'm saying, We may have a whole bunch of businesses that go to zero. I'm not sure if we'll be able to float all of them. And, you know, I think. Most investors would say, okay, this is an opportunity. I've got the upper hand. Maybe I can negotiate some terms. Hey Junior! Userist line of credit, you know, kind of get sharky about it. And Scott did the most beautiful thing. He said... First of all, Brent, we're 100% behind you. We have a lot of cash. And we would love to support you in whatever you need. You just tell us what you need And I said, well, Scott, I don't need anything right now. Knowing that that was standing at our back. Knowing that we had access to capital if we needed it, that it was gonna be kind, generous, long-term capital. Made all the difference. It allowed us to focus on what mattered, to make good decisions. Um, that's what you get with investors who I would say, get it, quote unquote, long term, right? And so, you know, we're deeply grateful. Like I said, we think we have the best partners in the world. That enables us to go then to business owners and say. Um, everyone else is going to, um, try to resell you within a short period of time. Probably acts a bunch of your leadership. Kind of bring in their people, maybe move it out of the community that it's in. Levered up with a bunch of debt And it's just going to completely change the nature of the business. We can come in and say we like you because you've done a great job. We wouldn't be interested unless we thought you did a great job. We want you to continue to do a good job. We hope that. We can support you and maybe increase the trajectory, but we're not trying to completely transform, remake the business. We're trying to help support you in your vision of where you want to take this. So let's talk about that. Let's talk about what we should be doing. The ability to not use debt is highly underrated. You know, math is pretty straightforward. You know, if you know exactly what the future holds. It's not hard to say, okay, use max leverage, but as little equity as you can, you're gonna get incredible returns on that equity. Things go okay. The problem is the world is unknown and unknowable. Like that is our viewpoint. And it's been proven over and over again, especially recently. I have no idea what's going to happen the next year. Right. Um, I can remember I was in a conversation. It was, uh, fall of 2019. We were completing our $300 million fund raise and our last fund. And I was talking with some investors and I was like, do you guys see anything on the horizon that could potentially like. Upset the apple cart. No, everything was great, everything's awesome. Fall of 19. This is great, fall of 19, nothing could be going on. We buy an aerospace business fall of 19. I don't know if you guys know this, but aerospace never goes down. Always Flatter Up. Always flatter up. We're working the seller's team and one of the guys on the team says. Are you guys like? Complete idiots, like you're buying an aerospace business with all cash, like. This is a bunch of parts. You can lever it like it's, this is. Why are you guys doing it this way? And we were like, well, because we believe in this, you know, philosophy that we have better optionality. We have no idea what's gonna come down the pipe. And they're like. All right. We are idiots just for different reasons. Um Turns out, it's not like we foresaw COVID coming, believe me, we didn't at all. But when COVID came, we were literally the only one of the people in our industry who didn't have that. And we made 10 years of progress in two years. And the business completely transformed. I think it's 7X what it was. In 2020 now. And um... It's been an incredible success story. And it wouldn't have happened if we had been beholden to banks and being able to do that. So I think it's the pairing of. Long-term time horizon. The lack of debt that we put on these companies. And then our fee model, which is. Crazy. I mean. I think it's unique, I don't think anyone else has done this, but they take no fees of any kind. No reimbursements of any kind. There's no cash that comes from our portfolio companies or from the LPs to us. Outside of... We take a percentage of free cash flow above a hurdle as we return cash back to investors. So it's incredibly entrepreneurial. You know, said differently, there's no fee income coming in. There's no incentive for us to. Amass more and more resources so that we can get more and more fees, which is kind of the trap that traditional private equity falls into. We're doing it just. Purely for the love of the game and for what we're doing and we're pairing our capital with their their capital and we are trying to do the best we can, and if we can't do well, like our investors. Make more money than us. And if they don't make money, we don't make any money. They had to make a lot more than us for us to make money. And so I feel like it's those things that really just perfectly align. You know, the incentives at the company level, the incentives of the permanent equity level, and the incentives that the investor level are all aligned as well as they possibly can be. To make good decisions. And again, it's kind of like. We want to have all the incentives lined up to push us in the right direction, we can still screw it up. We do, we have to say sorry. But... I don't feel the poles of traditional fund manager in having to make those trade-offs.
Justin Forman [00:46:49] That's awesome. Well, this is a special episode. It's fun to be here at South by just to talk about this and this convergence of. Faith Driven Entrepreneurs and Faith Drived Investors is going to air on both of those. I want you to talk about just kind of where some of those conversations for you guys and the importance of community hits. With Main Street Summit. I just want you to just kind of talk about. What is it? Who's there? What's that journey been like?
Brent Beshore [00:47:10] Yeah. I joke that. Private equity is an excuse for hospitality. I like I love my friends becoming friends, like nothing makes me happier. I don't get any envy. If they're all getting together without me, it might be. But for the most part, I want them to go off and have a great time together. For me to be able to see my friends become friends is just the greatest joy in my life. And I think, you know, kind of going back to part of our earlier conversation. You know, to be known means to be in community. And most people don't have access to community, especially in the financial world. And the community that we do have access to feels very shallow. Transactional. Money focused and was what we're trying to do with Main Street Summit. We were at another event called Capital Camp that's only for investors. We're trying to bring people together and say, hey. We're all here to do well. We want to be excellent at what we do. There's no sacrifice of excellence. If anything, I am way more excellent at my job as a follower of Jesus. Than I was as an atheist. Um. We want you to be excellent, but we want you to be in relationship and remember what excellence is. Excellence, if you're shooting the lights out and you're making tons of money and you are sacrificing your family at the altar of success. You are losing. Like, yeah, you got a yacht and you have no one to enjoy it with. And so we try to have messages like that where it's not a, so it's on a faith driven event necessarily. I mean, there's a lot of people of faith at the event. We want people to be authentically who they are. And we want it to be something where people feel comfortable inviting their atheist or maybe it's a person of a different type of faith. To come to the event. But we can all share these values and say, hey, we're pursuing excellence. We're putting our family first. If we want to be in real relationship. And that aroma of Christ, I think, just comes through. I think that people, I mean, why don't you talk to it, Richard, I think you were there. I knew it.
Richard Cunningham [00:49:11] It was unbelievably powerful. First of all, you show up to Columbia, Missouri, it's fall. It's beautiful. Which is the center of the known universe. The center of known universe
Justin Forman [00:49:18] Waco was that? What's that? I thought we established Waco as the center. Okay, they're competing closely.
Richard Cunningham [00:49:23] Absolutely. But like, and it just feels like when you show up to a conference and you feel this rush of like, I got to meet, meet, network, network. And somehow, some way, you've created and curated this environment where Main Street Summit takes over all of downtown Main Street. And things just kind of slow down, you're like, wait. I'm here to just like fellowship and enjoy. And then the people you put on the main stage, which is just so commendable is like John Coleman gets up there and he's like, Hey. We're all here to make more money, it feels like. But I'm actually gonna talk about how that's actually not beneficial to your soul is to pursue money. Alan Barnhart gets up there and talks about giving away. Billions of dollars and how just the Lord called him this radical generosity. And so you are so winsome and strategic and how you position people up there but you're hittin' on it. It speaks to this whole person. I mean, you put your personal trainer up on stage to talk about just being healthy. And what it looks like to go on a fitness journey because We are mind, body, spirit, soul, as we run businesses or invest in businesses. It's this incredible kind of opportunity to say, Hey, let's talk about. The whole person and there's. Fun whiskey and tequila tastings and there's great live music and it's just it. Had this kind of ability of like, I walked back and as a you know, middle of the week event and I was like, I feel like I just had the greatest long weekend of all time with a bunch of really special people. So you guys have nailed. Just the heart posture behind it, so keep going, but...
Brent Beshore [00:50:34] Keep going but well honestly i i mean we're here you know we're in austin we're at south by southwest i mean as i have in my head of what i hope it becomes You know, South By started with. 40 years ago? 50 years ago, maybe we're pushing now. I don't even know. It's in a long time Um, and I'm, you know, I'm sure it started small. I've talked to a bunch of people who started these events that became big and they were like, and we couldn't get anybody to come. I mean, Allen and co, I talked to the guy who runs the Allen co conference, Which is like the, you know, if you see Bill Gates walking next to Warren Buffett, it's at Allen co, right? Like that's, you know, they all got vests on the old puffy puffy vester in Sun Valley, And I talked to him and I was asking him all kinds of questions about how do they do things, what are they working on, all this stuff. And he said, well, how many people do you have do your first year? And I said, oh, you know. First-year capital camp was like I think 260 and he's like And I was like. Oh, man, that's not very good. Is it? He's probably going to he's like. We couldn't get like two dozen people to show up the first 10 years of the Allen Coat Conference. What? And he's like, yeah, it just over time gains momentum. Being here is actually, I've never experienced South by Southwest. One of the things I'm excited about is. Got an invitation to speak tonight. I'm excited to just go and experience it because What in my head is South By is kind of where I want Main Street to go, which is a festival. I want it to be a festival where instead of, you know, food and wine or instead of. You know, films. You sit in relationship with people and learn and grow together. And different niches and different interests and different industries and. Want all of those people to come together in this very broad tent. So whether you're. Running a startup, whether you've got a 50-year-old mature business. Whether you're an owner or an operator or an investor in this area of the market, we want to create the big tent gathering. Where people start to come in. And say, hey. We want to be in relationship. We want be known. Let's gather there once a year. And make it something on the calendar that we go to.'
Richard Cunningham [00:52:20] I think you guys have captured lightning in a bottle. Gravitational force type of thing. And I bring up Main Street Summit, people are like, you got to go to Main Street summit. Oh my goodness, I saw so-and-so was speaking or so-so is there, so. Kudos and job well done. I just love that your philosophy to private equity and kind of your redemptive mindset. Gets to kind of permeate throughout all of this, because people naturally look up permanent equity or be sure and. They start looking into. What do they do and how do they go about it? And they're like, wait, what is this? Long-term hold private equity company. That's not just like stripping down. It's just a really. Kind of winsome way to kind of. Showcase what you guys are all about as well
Justin Forman [00:52:56] Fun conversation. It's great to be with both of you guys. Friends, if you're listening to this and you're wrestling with this question of like, man, it feels like a lonely journey, or it feels that you're in that burnout stage, I would just encourage you, whether you're a faith-driven entrepreneur or a faith driven investor. Find somebody, find somebody in a place where you can begin to get known. And so that it starts with the little things that pull us off track. As we talked about today, it starts small, and it starts little. Find a place. An event, a conference, whether it's Main Street Summit or some of the opportunities that are all over the Faith Driven Entrepreneur and Faith Drived Investor site. But just take a faithful step. Take a step towards somewhere where you can be known. So, great to be with you guys. Thanks for tuning in, we'll see you guys next week.
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