Episode 199 - The Good Investor with Robin John, CEO & Founder of Eventide Asset Management
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What if the biggest mutual funds in America force you to invest in companies that violate your deepest values? Robin John, CEO of Eventide Asset Management, refused to accept that trade-off and built a different path—one where capital flows toward companies that actually make the world better. In this raw conversation about his new book "The Good Investor," discover why the question isn't just what you won't invest in, but what you should be rooting for every single day.
Please note that the views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Faith Driven Investor.
All opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies and securities discussed. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization.
Episode Transcript
Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it.
Richard Cunningham [00:00:00] You're listening to Faith Driven Investor, a podcast that highlights voices from a growing movement of Christ-following investors who believe that God owns it all and cares deeply about the heart posture behind our stewardship. Thanks for listening.
Intro [00:00:17] Hey everyone, all opinions expressed on this podcast, including the team and guests, are solely their opinions. Host and guests may maintain positions in the companies of securities discussed. And this podcast is for informational purposes only, and should not be relied upon as specific investment advice for any individual or organization. Thanks for listening.
Richard Cunningham [00:00:43] Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Faith Driven Investor Podcast. Great to have you with us. I've got Luke Rauch with me. Luke, it is episode 199. So this is releasing on June 16th. Hard to believe that on June 30th, we'll be releasing big episode 200. But here for episode 199, we're in for a treat as we've got Robin John, CEO of Eventide Asset Management out of Boston with us, and we get to unpack. Robin's new book, The Good Investor, that releases everywhere books are sold on July 22nd, so later this summer. This is going to be a blast just hearing some of Robin's story, some of kind of the story behind The Good investor, the book, what's going on at Eventide within this broader FDI space we're all so passionate about. Before we say hey to Robin, Luke, how are you, man?
Luke Roush [00:01:25] I am doing great.e My birthday is on July 21. I'm delaying celebration for at least one day in anticipation of the good investor. So it's great to be around here with long-time friend, Robin, and someone I admire and think really highly of. So exciting day here, Richard.
Richard Cunningham [00:01:41] Robin, how are things in Boston? From what I'm gathering, tonight as we head into Memorial Day weekend, there is a big dinner at the John Household.
Robin John [00:01:47] Yes, my wife is, we have some guests over. She's making her famous chicken biryani. It takes her the whole day. She started like 6 a.m. In the morning. We fry the chicken first, then bake it, then the rice, put it all together. I also wanna thank you. It seems like I made the top 200 list, episode 199, so thank you!
Richard Cunningham [00:02:08] You slid in right in time. No, man, we could not think more highly of Eventide, even before we went on air, it's just the affirmation that we have for what Eventide is doing, investing that makes the world rejoice. And so I know we'll get into some of that story here on the back end. But Robin, we got to start with kind of the roots of where all of this starts. And even in your book, you've got this powerful narrative of growing up in Southern India, sleeping on the concrete floor below the bed that you shared with your brother and grandfather just to find a little bit of coolness. And now you're leading one of the more well-respected firms and kind of all of the values-based investing movement. Just talk to me about, when you think about this book releasing and thinking it back to the roots and what God has done in your story, just all you're feeling right now in the wake of all that.
Robin John [00:02:53] I just feel extremely thankful and just every day I think about kind of where we came from. And you know, one of my heroes in the Bible is David. One of the things that makes him extremely kind of good as a leader is the fact that he would always remember what God did for him in the past. And even when he stands before Goliath, you see that he remembers. What God did for him when he stood before the lion, the bear. And you see that throughout his life. And so I'm just so thankful for where God has led me. I never want to portray that in any way I am more blessed today, even though the past was, there was more of a struggle in a way. It was a very blessed life. I got to see real faith. In my parents and my grandparents, and generosity lived out. You know, my grandfather was a church planter. Yes, I slept under the bed. The electricity went out around 6, 7 p.m. Every night. And so the fan would just stop. And at nighttime, you know, southern India is right by the equator. So it's just very hot. And you got like cockroaches and coconut beetles and huge spiders inside the house. No bathroom in the house. We would walk to an outhouse. And in the woods, there are snakes, cobras. So often, I didn't make it all the way to the outhouse
Richard Cunningham [00:04:33] This is a terrifying fighting of the elements just to go to the restroom.
Robin John [00:04:36] Yes, but again, such a wonderful, simple life. And I often think, you know, when the electricity went out, we prayed, we sang, we told stories, we spent time together as a family, versus watching the NBA playoffs late in time.
Richard Cunningham [00:04:56] The night which is going on right now here stateside so i think that's and you're a big basketball fan so maybe a little bit of a jab at then versus now yes yeah that's right
Luke Roush [00:05:06] I just looked up a picture of Coconut Beetle, and that's something else to see it crawling past your bed. So that's awesome. I'm curious, Robin, just kind of how you made the pivot from more traditional work or traditional asset management into building Eventide, which particularly at the time that you and Finney and the rest of the team were doing it, it was a decidedly different road than very many others had embarked upon. Love to hear that origin story, if you wouldn't mind.
Robin John [00:05:32] Yeah, I think like most Christians, I was struggling with a sacred, secular mindset. And I really believed that to do anything for God meant going into kind of the church ministry, the sacred. And you know, growing up in the Indian kind of Christian community, maybe it's even pronounced than it is in the American Christian community where even terms like servant of God is only used for someone who is in church ministry. So I grew up hoping that God would call me into church ministry, and I ended up going through a series of prayer, taking classes at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary here in Boston, and ultimately asked Finney to pray with me. Finney is the co-founder of Eventide. We would spend one day per week. Fasting and praying and would do this for months. And the prayer was all around what we could do for God to honor God. Initially, the ideas were very much ministry like nonprofit, church ministry type ideas. And ultimately we felt that God was calling us into finance. And there's a whole long story there, but to summarize, Finney would often talk about how he would avoid ill God and gain. And he would not invest in pornography, tobacco, things like that, abortion. And he would look at the biggest mutual funds in America and say, if I look at The Top Holdings, I cannot invest in these companies. And so I initially said to Finney, Finney do you think other Christians would want to invest this way? And the idea of avoiding ill-gotten gain and having integrity and investing based on our biblical values. And so, initially we were set out to create an investment firm that really focused on avoiding ill-gotten gain. And through this prayer, I believe that God was really speaking to us and bringing people to us. And I got a phone call from a person named Tim, and Finney and I had started a house church in Boston prior to this. And Tim said Hey, I've never been to a house church. I wanna come and visit your house church." And what we didn't know about Tim is that he was a student of faith and business. And he didn't that we were about to start a Christian investment firm. So Tim comes to the house church, overheard that Robin and Finney are starting a Christian mutual fund. So Tim had a way of speaking. So he said, I know what it means to be a Christian. I know a mutual fund is. Put that together for me. And so we talked about avoiding ill-gotten gain. And Tim said, that's great. You know, I get it. Christians should avoid ill-gottten gain, but why are you only asking the question about where you're not investing? If investing is the allocation of capital, where should Christians allocate capital? If God had a purpose for investing, what would that purpose look like? That really started the journey for us.
Richard Cunningham [00:08:58] Man, that's awesome. All right, so we're gonna get into that kind of investing as an act of neighborly love that you're hitting on right now and that the book talks about as well. But just because I want to recap the story, and I know your story is well documented, but just for the sake of kind of linear thinking on this podcast. So it was, grew up in India, immigrated to the U.S. At eight, right? Yes. And then grew up the Boston area, went to Tufts, and then it was traditional finance, Bank of New York, Mellon, Grant Thornton, correct? And then it's been an 18 year journey now with Eventide. Alongside you and Finny. Of course, Tim is a part of this founding story. Now, get into the practicals of how you guys started to push into, well, hey, if shepherding capital can be kind of an act of worship and not just kind of screening out what we're against, the ill-gotten gain, as you say, what does it look like to showcase the neighborly love in terms of pushing capital towards what we are for in the world, if you will?
Robin John [00:09:51] Even before we think about that neighborly love framework for investing, there's even a step even higher than that. And I talk about this in the book. Why were we created? Even before, we start thinking about investing. Why were created? And in Genesis 1, we see a God who's a creator, and he's a good God. The only thing we know about God in Genesis, Genesis 1, 2, 3... Is that he is a good God who does good work, and he calls his work good. He doesn't say excellent, he doesn't this is whatever else, this is great. He says, no, it is good. After every day of work, he says, it's good. When he looks at all of his work, he says this is very good. And then the Bible says in Genesis 1.26 that God created us. Male and female, in his image, and why are we created in God's image? The verse tells us, in Genesis 1.26, we were made in God image. It says so that we can steward his creation, so that can have dominion, King David says in the Psalms, dominion over the work of his hands. And I was recently telling somebody, If you look at the statue of David by Michelangelo, imagine if Michelangela had said, I'm almost done with the statue. I am now gonna give dominion over the work of my hands to Robin John, okay? This good looking statue of david, I would make him look so bad, okay. I wouldn't know what to do with it. I wouldn't know what do with the nose, the lips, the hair, the eyebrows, But, God... Has given us dominion over the work of his hands, I think he could trust us because he has created us in his image. And his image is the image of a good God who does good work that he calls good. So he could trust to do good work. So now coming back to investing, the reason I named the book, The Good Investor, is because we're trying to answer this question, if we are made in God's image, and God does good And we are made in this image of a good God and called to do good work. What does it look like to do a good investing? And so I think we have to now go a step further and say, okay, we're supposed to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength. And we're are supposed to love our neighbor as ourselves. And in Galatians, Paul says that all the commandments are summed up in that one commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself. The Bible calls it the Royal Law of Scripture. Is to love your neighbor as yourself. So we had to ask ourselves, how can we love our neighbor through investing? Who are the neighbors to a business? Leviticus chapter 19 gives us a clue. That's where the love your neighborhood principle shows up for the first time in the Bible. But it talks to business people. It talks to the farmer, the vineyard owner, and says, love your neighbors as yourself, and the examples it gives there are the hired servant, the employee, poor in the community. So as we were starting Eventide, we made a whole list of these neighbors. We said, okay, a business should serve and love their customers, their employees, their supply chain, their host community, their environment, and broadly the society. So we came up with these neighbors, and we said, we wanna find the companies that through their products and through their practices are loving these neighbors and not exploiting these neighbors. In order to pursue a profit.
Luke Roush [00:13:50] So on the topic of kind of neighborly love and profit, you guys have figured out how to do that well in and through your portfolio companies and the partnerships that you've constructed. How do you think about managing through some of that tension, right? Not over the long term, but over the short and medium term, you could spend all of your time every day just really focused on loving your neighbor, but then at some point, right, you've got to develop a new therapeutic, you've gotta do the hard work of recruiting patients and proving out the science. How do you guys advise investors to navigate that tension without compromising on any values?
Robin John [00:14:27] Yes. So when it comes to investing based on values, there are a couple of kind of overarching principles. So one of the concerns that people would have is does this lead to underperformance in the long term or the short term? And I would say that one, even if it leads to under performance from a biblical perspective as Christians, should we not pursue this? So let me give you an example. Let's say something that was very much accepted in our country in the 1800s even, so what, 150 years ago, was slavery. And if somebody came to us and said, hey, we can make more money selling slaves than we can investing in public equities, should we pursue that? I think today most Christians would say, no, we should not pursue that. That dishonors God, that dishonors our neighbor, We should not do that. Even if there's more money to be made there. So why not bring that same principle to issues like human trafficking, pornography, abortion, you know, gambling, there are a whole list of things, right? So I would say even if investing based on values leads to underperformance, it is the right thing to do. But I would that the data proves that we should not have to underperform. And You know, there's a group called the Biblically Responsible Investing Institute. You know they've done some research over the last 19-20 years and what they showed is that there are years where their screened index underperforms slightly, years where it outperforms slightly, but on the whole, over that period of time, the 19 or 20 year period, there was neither underperformance or outperformance. It was exactly the same as the benchmark. So, from a negative screening standpoint... I don't believe that there's much of an impact down or up, but I do believe that when you bring in positive value creation metrics, like employee happiness scores, a customer delight, those metrics can help us with performance. Companies that serve well their customers will have a higher net promoter score. Those customers are raving fans, and that should help the company's long-term prospects. Same thing with the employee, right?
Richard Cunningham [00:16:55] Yeah, Robin, there was a I think it was a Warren Buffett adage kind of in the peak of ESG. He was famous for saying this. I think then Mark Andreessen made it said it too, which was and the whole kind of like multiple bottom line value based investing. Warren Buffet said, hey, you can give me a house. It's a good long term store of value and it's a Good place to live. Or you can get me a boat. It's pretty terrible store of value, but it's really fun thing to do and go out on. But don't give me houseboat. It makes both a bad boat and a bad house. And I've always kind of like heard that as one of the main, like pushbacks to this idea of values-based investing. But I think your work at Eventide is helping kind of prove out, no, no no. There's actually an opportunity here to say, stop thinking in the houseboat framework. There is an opportunity in the pursuit of excellent companies to add something else that is just kind of the human flourishing component of it, the care for all of the people inside of the value chain of a company. And so is there any? Kind of heroes or darlings of the portfolio that you'd talk about, that you guys have just been especially inspired by, that even Titus had the joy of partnering with, that, man, you exemplify kind of this justice-centered work, this human flourishing work, but also the excellent component as well, that kind of pushes back on this houseboat analogy.
Robin John [00:18:10] So to use the household analogy, first I do want to say that it doesn't work well when it comes to investing because I do think that Christians need a renewing of our minds as Romans 12 talks about when it comes topics like work and investing. And if investing is the allocation of capital and if we're supposed to love neighbor, really like we should be asking ourselves like where should we be allocating capital Another question is, what do we root for in the world? When we are investing in tobacco, every single day, you're going to wake up and look at the tobacco stock, and you're hoping that the tobacco company has more dividends, which means you're hoping that more people are smoking. So one question to ask as investors is, What are you rooting for in world? So to answer your question, there are many things to root for the world, right? So when I look at our portfolio, So, I am just so encouraged constantly. About just the wonderful work that is happening around the world by Christians and non-Christians. A third of our investing at Eventide is in biotech, but both in biotechnology and outside of biotechnology, there is just so many stories I could tell. So when it comes to things like oncology, cancer therapeutics, when you are investing in a company that is treating Duchenne muscular dystrophy, where you see young boys who are stuck in a wheelchair, who are expected to die before the age of 20. Actually being able to reverse that, and where they're getting out of a wheelchair, running up and down stairs. When you're investing in companies where you're treating Alzheimer's disease and dementia, and when you know that most of the homeless population is dealing with schizophrenia, and the same drug can also treat schizophrenia, these are reasons to rejoice, right? Reasons to find joy in investing outside of biotech, that company that we've invested in. Is a trucking company. The trucking industry is known for drivers not being able to sleep at home in their own bed. They're often on the road for days at a time, away from their wives and their kids. This one company that we've invested in, 90-something percent of their drivers sleep in their bed every night. So they have reconfigured their routes to be able to help their drivers, yet they have better on-time delivery rates for their customers. Than their competition. They have reinvested in their trucks so that the trucks are more environmentally friendly, safer technology, autonomous driving, so that their trucks are safer, not just for the drivers, but for society on the road. So these are the types of stories that we just get really excited about when we see that. Yeah, one of the things that we...
Luke Roush [00:20:59] Often talked about is there are four, I don't know if you followed N.T. Wright at all, but the four big meta narratives in Scripture. There's the creation mandate, we're made in God's image, therefore we are creative, as he was creative. There is obviously the fall of man all the way back to the garden, and the reason that we live east of Eden is a function of our disobedience. There is the redemption narrative that we were redeemed through Christ, and then there's this concept of kinsman-redeemer as well, but. And then there's the restoration narrative that we're actually called to be restoring things that were originally intended for the garden, but that didn't come to pass. And what I love about what you all are doing is you're leaning, of those four, three of them are positive. Creation mandate, the redemption mandate, the restoration mandate. And the examples that you just provided are great examples of what restoration looks like. How do we restore things that are broken in the world? I'd love to also have you riff just for a moment on, what are the injustices that you all as a firm and as partners have identified that the investment world is complicit in? Obviously, tobacco is a great example, but there are other examples maybe as well. And how can we as stewards of capital actually step into the fight and find the agency that God's given us as stewards to kind of find our voice there, any counsel that you would give to our listeners.
Robin John [00:22:25] There are so many examples of injustice in the marketplace, and obviously things like abortion and pornography and tobacco and violent video gaming and weaponry and environmental harm, gambling, subprime mortgages. There are just so many example in the market place. But I think the overarching theme is that humans generally, without God in our lives, without the Holy Spirit, we tend to become very selfish. And we tend to become exploitative and self-motivated. And there's a reason why when you look at Hollywood, the way that they portray investors is that investors are just very greedy, exploitative people. Movies like Wall Street, Money Never Sleeps, Other People's Money, Boiler Room, Margin Call, The Wolf of Wall Street. There isn't a narrative about investing or investors. Paints a good picture about investing. Yet I believe that we as Christians have this ability to bring a better way, to bring God's love and the good news to investing. That investing is not about exploitation. Investing is not just about promoting greed, but it's about actually allocating capital to help bring flourishing in the world and to serve the needs of the world.
Richard Cunningham [00:23:48] Man, that's awesome. And when you think about the work of even Tad Robin, you all shepherd a significant amount of capital and you sit in a seat of responsibility and influence as you engage with companies. I know there's opportunities to vote your proxy and make your voice heard and engage and kind of come around company CEOs or boards and advocate for certain policies that push for human flourishing. Anything else you're seeing right now that you're deeply encouraged by, just kind of innovative approaches to company engagement or. Different methodologies to screening, because you guys are so often on the cutting edge of this. I'd love to hear about what you've kind of seen lately with your team.
Robin John [00:24:22] Yeah, it's not just the Eventide team, but broadly, I would say all of us within the faith-driven investing space, one, I am extremely encouraged that more and more people are not only considering their investing, but considering the work generally. And you know, the faith and work movement over the past 15 years have really taken, you know I would, say when we were starting Eventide, that conversation was not the same. And Now, there are groups like Faith Driven Investing and Praxis and Kingdom Advisors and just so many of these groups having the same conversation and you got the faith and work groups all over the country, whether it's the Denver Institute or the Charlotte Institute or the Pegasus Institute, Gotham Fellowship, Made to Flourish. I just see such energy with Christians to bring their calling into their work and to see their work as calling, investing as a form of work. So I am just extremely encouraged there. And I believe that we have an ability to do, as Jesus said in Matthew 5, 16, that when the world sees our good works, they will glorify our Father in heaven. So I think as more and more Christians are waking up to this idea of investing and working in ways to promote the common good and the redemptive good, I do believe that we're gonna be able to have a witness before the non-Christian world.
Luke Roush [00:25:51] We've got a book coming out, Robin has a book coming out entitled, The Good Investor. I wanna talk just about the aims longterm for that book. And the legacy we leave is ultimately in Christ alone, but God calls us to use our platforms to magnify certain messages and to try to leave the ladder down for others coming behind. Maybe talk a little bit about what that looks like over the next 20 years and your hope.
Robin John [00:26:18] Yeah, so I believe that the work that we've done as sovereigns at Eventide, at Faith Driven Investing, I believe sovereigns started in 2009 or 10.
Luke Roush [00:26:31] Yeah, 2011.
Robin John [00:26:32] 2011. Yeah, so we started 2008. So around the same time. And I believe we're just getting started still. And, you know, this is a movement building process. You know, I often tell our team that we have to almost create a market and then sell into the market. So the work we're doing is movement building together. And if I go to any church in America, I I don't even think 1%. Of the church has even considered the two things that we're discussing here, that their work has calling, right, that they're called into their work, and two, that God cares about their investing. I don't think most Christians even have considered it. And we're just getting started and sharing that message still. So over the next 20 years, someday, if God gives me a long life, my desire is that I could look back, I could walk into any church. And whether people practice investing this way or not, at least they have heard the message.
Luke Roush [00:27:35] Yeah, that resonates with me. And I think it's a great reminder that even though I know at times, Robin, it probably feels like you guys have been at this forever. I know depending on the day, it feels like we've been at it for a little while. But the reality is in the narrative and arc of time, we're still very much in the first inning of, I think, responding to a broader movement of the Holy Spirit in helping people understand the agency that they have as investors. You know, it's a great joy to be able to be a part alongside many of our listeners in reconstructing how we think about stewardship. The narrative of Christ followers in the marketplace, advancing the gospel and advancing human flourishing in the ways that you guys have certainly done at Eventide goes all the way back to the early church. Three of the four early church planting centers were started by merchants and trades people. You look at the legacy of the Moravian. In Europe, you look at the legacy of, you know, the church up until the last 50 or a hundred years in the U S very, very progressive in pushing for change that promoted in an environment where humans could flourish. And yet at some point we kind of lost that narrative. And so it's fun to be a part alongside many of our listeners to Eventide really being a bellwether in reigniting what has always been there and will always be there is that we are as believers in the marketplace, not second-class citizens, but instead we are in the same way that vocational pastors are, to be on mission every day. It's a joy to watch how you and your team do that at Eventide, Robin.
Robin John [00:29:07] Yes, thank you. And I do believe there are different kinds of callings. And in no way do I want to say that someone who is in some part of the world suffering, sacrificially, starving because of their calling, and maybe being beat up because of their calling that what I do is the same as what they do. In no way am I claiming that. But we each have a calling in our work that we should pursue. And I also don't want to portray that. Eventide, or my work as a CEO, matters any more to God than, like, my mother, who was a nursing aide. I wish somebody had spoken to her when we came to America that God cares about her work. Every day when she was cleaning the diapers of the elderly or bathing them, she was loving them and loving God in the process.
Luke Roush [00:29:59] Amen. Amen. I really appreciate that word and 100% agreed, Robin. That is well said.
Richard Cunningham [00:30:05] All right, Robin, a little two for one here to take us home. First is just kind of getting back to the book. What are you hoping, like pray, that people just feel after they finish the book? That's one. And then two, I'm curious about this. If you could go back and tell Robin John in 2007 something he wished he would have known prior to starting Eventide and the journey you guys have been on. I'd love to know what that is. So take that in whatever order you want, but take us with some of that wisdom and thoughts.
Robin John [00:30:30] Okay, what I don't want people feeling is judgment. I don't want anybody feeling that somehow I am telling them that they need to change. But what I am hoping that people would feel is that God cares, that God loves them, that God has created them to do good work, that they have such potential to honor God in their everyday work, that it's not just on Sunday, but it's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday as well. So I hope I could inspire the person, that they could walk away reading the book, really inspire to honor God each and every day, and not just on the weekend or when they teach Sunday school on Sunday morning. And your second question was, what would I tell my younger self? The one thing I would tell my young self is, be faithful, don't chase after success. Don't chase money. Be faithful. Do what you believe that is honoring to God. In my early career, I took some jobs. I was just jumping based on what paid higher. I ultimately found no satisfaction in it. I found satisfaction when I prayed, when I felt that the Lord was leading me. And today, regardless of what happens, regardless of our AUM, I don't care, like at the end of the day, I wanna know that Eventide is honoring God. Our purpose statement says Eventide strives to honor God and serve our clients by investing in companies. That create compelling value for the global common good. So wherever God takes that, if it means that Eventide was just the first step of that journey, that God raises somebody else to take this journey forward, if I could be used to honor God in this movement, like that's where I wanna be. And I don't want to chase after profit or success by worldly standards.
Richard Cunningham [00:32:23] Let's shift the bullseye to faithfulness. What a great aim, man. Well, Rob and John, deeply inspired by this time together. Friends, The Good Investor releases everywhere in just a month and some change for when this podcast releases on July 22nd. Be sure to check it out. Even tight asset management, such an incredible kind of flag carrier in this broader FDI movement. Rob, I just encourage, by the way, scripture flows out of you, man, but it's just, that's cool to hear. Folks, for Luke Rauch, I'm Richard Cunningham. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the FDI Podcast. We will catch you on June 30th for episode 200. Big special release there. See you next time, friends.
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