Episode 17 - The Economics of Neighborly Love with Tom Nelson of Made to Flourish
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If you’ve been following the Faith Driven conversation, you’ve no doubt heard the name Tom Nelson. He’s been featured on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast twice, and we’re so glad to get to talk to him about the investing side of this conversation. Tom recently wrote a book titled, The Economics of Neighborly Love.
In the book, Tom brought his theological insight into the realm of finance and investing. We talked to him about all of this as well as what the good news of Jesus means for economics.
Marrying biblical study, economic theory, and practical advice, he presents a vision for church ministry that works toward the flourishing of the local community, beginning with its poorest and most marginalized members. Find out more in our conversation. As always, thanks for listening.
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The Economics of Neighborly Love
Episode Transcript
Some listeners have found it helpful to have a transcription of the podcast. Transcription is done by an AI software. While technology is an incredible tool to automate this process, there will be misspellings and typos that might accompany it. Please keep that in mind as you work through it. The FDI movement is a volunteer-led movement, and if you’d like to contribute by editing future transcripts, please email us.
Henry: [00:02:24] Tom, thank you very much for being on the show today. We're so grateful that you've joined us on the Faith Driven Entrepreneur podcast on our other channel. Your episode there was fantastic. And we're pleased and privileged and blessed to have had you on before. But we're also really sad to have you on today to speak to the FDI audience. This is an audience of investors who are looking to store their investment capital for God's glory. And we all get fired up about having you on board because you're one of the few writers and authors and pastors. Somebody comes out of the workplace that speaks about not just the workplace. And that's a great thing that more and more people are focusing on what the church has to do with the workplace. But also economics is a part of your teaching and your ministry. And so you're in a great perspective to be able to share the views that you have on the economics of the kingdom of God in such a way that I think that we'll be in a better position to invest better. So perfect for you to be on before we get going. [00:03:23][59.0]
[00:03:23] I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about just generally Made to Flourish. What is Made to Flourish, what's the work you're doing, and then generally even go so far as maybe even suggest how it might be able to be helpful for us, an audience of faith of investors. [00:03:39][15.3]
Tom: [00:03:40] Yeah. Henry, great to be with you and your team. And yeah, Made to Flourish. I have the joy of serving a remarkable organization. It's only four years old. So we're involved in the expansion of a really important mission around the world, particularly in the United States first. And so, yeah, our mission is really about helping pastors first and foremost. I mean, we work with business leaders and parishioners as well, but helping pastors to more effectively empower them and encourage them and equip them to connect Sunday to Monday better. [00:04:07][27.6]
[00:04:08] So what we really do is we emphasize the importance of the integration of faith, work and economic wisdom for the flourishing of your communities. We're deeply committed that the Christian faith profoundly speaks into the common good and the flourishing of all humans made in God's image. So we are a national network. We're growing and we're trying to make a big difference in helping pastors and churches more effectively be whole like disciples and really impact the marketplace. And I'm really, really thrilled that I'm a part of this FDI conversation because all who are listening. You matter. Your work matters. I just want to say that the importance of investing well in building capacity, providing dignity and opportunity and jobs for the world, and it is so important what you're doing. I just want to thank you for the work you're doing. First and foremost, I'm a big cheerleader. It's awesome as well. For God's glory, for the kingdom and for God's people. [00:05:02][53.6]
Henry: [00:05:03] Amen, brother. Amen. So let's jump into your latest book. You've got a book out called The Economics of Neighborly Love. Rusty has joined us on this podcast because he's such a big fan of your work generally. And then this book specifically, you talk in the book about a broader definition of the economy and not just in our business, but how and where we do our business. [00:05:29][26.3]
[00:05:30] It's a big thought and we'd all love to hear you expound on this more for our listeners and now and invite Rusty on to narrow in on some of the different lessons and some of the applications that he took away from the book. But just a broad overview first. [00:05:42][12.7]
Tom: [00:05:43] Could I just briefly give you my autobiography because so much to understand if that's okay, Henry. You know, I grew up in a faith tradition where I was in church on Sunday, but there was very little connection with my life on Monday. And as a young boy, I grew up in an impoverished economic life. My dad died when I was young. My mom really worked hard as a single parent to help us survive. Some say saying this conversation of economic flourishing and the importance of economics is not an abstraction to me. It's deeply personal in my own autobiography and I share that in the book. And again, that helps inform, I think, my understanding of the theology and practicality of what it means to connect our faith with our work with the economy, with investment and so forth and how we invest. That has been a part of my story that is so important to me in terms of how I understand the importance of economic flourishing as it relates to human flourishing, as it relates to our faith. [00:06:39][55.2]
[00:06:40] I think when we look at the economy and economics, whether it's entrepreneurship or particularly investment. We have to understand that economics is woven into the creation account. [00:06:54][13.9]
[00:06:54] So I may be a bit theological, but that's sort of my bent. Right. I mean, wisdom, we understand. I'm saying in creation, we understand. We were designed to be fruitful. That's woven into the Genesis record. Right. The cultural mandate is to be fruitful. Multiply, fill the earth and have dominion and fruitfulness in the Hebrew text means productivity and pro creativity. And this theme of fruitfulness is woven all the way through the Bible. So we think about economic life. We find this command to be fruitful. And then we were created with community so it can bring these two together. Right. Right. We're male and female. Marriage is created that once Eve arrives on the scene in the creation story. We have an economy. We have an economy. We have a household stewardship. So God created us as economic creatures who create blessing from the creator order and share that blessing with others, whether it's monetized or not. Some say this idea of an economy is woven into creation, it's woven into the idea of being fruitful and fruitful in all dimensions of life. [00:07:54][60.2]
[00:07:54] So I think what you're asking me in the beginning is when we think about Jesus and his teaching the economy, Jesus teaches us that we are to be fruitful "by this is my father glorified, that you bear much fruit. And so prove to be my disciples." What I simply want to say is that all the way through scripture, the follower of Jesus is to be fruitful, fruitful in intimacy, relational intimacy, in productivity and neighborly love. So my book unpacks that, that's one thing about the economy. Our economic life embraces intimate relationships with others because it's a relationship and poverty is ultimately a relationship of impoverishment. Productivity and fruitfulness with the work of our hands or investments. And then the neighborly love that makes that possible, something the economy, economic life is a reflection of the great commandments and loving our neighbor and loving God. In one short statement, it changes how it's not just about a graph, it's not just about monetization, although that has an implication or supply and demand curves or leftward curves. It is about loving others in the world. Man, it's a little long, but I'm just saying it is about really loving others, loving God and others. Great commandments stuff. [00:09:02][67.6]
Henry: [00:09:03] What does it look like? You've got incredible ministry that's meant to equip pastors to equip the deployed, as you've talked about before, people, they're already out there. So you haven't yet written a book to help pastors to equip investors and help them to think through how they encourage their parishioners to think about how to invest in real estate or the public stock market or in private equity, et cetera. But do you have any just general thoughts knowing how important the economy is that we live in, that it's biblical, you call it in the story. We're in the garden. Our work was fruitful. We invested from the beginning. We're meant to multiply. And that obviously has some application for investors. But when you look at the marketplace and the way that you might invest or other people invest is there are some things that are just observations that you have about way the easy Christ is investing. Well, or maybe the inverse of that is when you see Christ-followers, maybe not investing well. What does that look like for you? [00:10:02][59.5]
Tom: [00:10:03] Oh, that's such a that's a question that's so important, Henry. And it needs a lot of reflection. A couple of just the initial thoughts. One is let's just take biblical wisdom, because we have parables like Matthew 25, where there is an expectation of a financial manager. Right. Managers to make more right to invest. Well. So the expectation of return on investment, whatever is very much woven into faithful discipleship for God's people. [00:10:28][24.1]
[00:10:28] I mean, Matthew, 25 is just I think most of us know the parable of talents. It's such a rich teaching on the importance of investing. Well, yes, but not risk-free. So there is a sense of deep risk that is built into the system. And the one investor who is strongly reproved, I mean, is one who wouldn't take the risk. Right. So I think there is a sense of God has an expectation of multiplication for the good of others, not just for self-indulgence, where multiplication, fruitfulness, thriving, living. So investment to me is forward looking. It's opportunistic looking at what's the need, what are the opportunities right now. Also, progress has more of a long horizon. Right. So, so much of it depends on tell us and time horizon. It makes sense. Like what is your purpose in investing? What's the target? What are you trying to do? In theory of God, of course. Right. If you're a follower. Well, what's your tell us what's your purpose? What's the big why? I think we all have to answer that as investors or leaders. But then what's our time horizon? Are we investing for a year, for 10 years, for a generation or multiple generations? So when I started cross-community community 30 years ago with my sweet bride to questions. What is the purpose? What's the time horizon in our institution is built for a time horizon. Should the Lord tarry, much more than 30 or 50 years from now will be here? William James says the greatest use of a life. William James was a Harvard professor. The greatest use of a life is to invest it in something that outlasts it. I'm just saying, I would suggest and I've not written on this, but I'm just giving you my thoughts more than tactics. It's more clarity of the why and the time horizon that guides that investment decision. Ultimately it's the glory of God in the furtherance of his kingdom. But what's the time horizon? What's the long play? [00:12:23][114.7]
[00:12:24] And so within that I would just say I think proverbs has several themes of wisdom. One is. We need to think about economic life, investing, whatever it is, consumption through the lens of diligence, justice, generosity and ethics of what is right. And we can talk some more about the practicality of it. But I would say tell us some time horizon. And then I would suggest that risk has to be measured. What level of risk? And then the fiduciary responsibility if you're investing someone else's resources. [00:12:56][32.3]
[00:12:57] But the importance of investing before God, it's a given in scripture. The outcome is not certain. Right. But you can have a tell us and time horizon. So I think it's very important what my underresourced friends in under-resourced communities keep telling me to invest my life, not just my talents, my resources in giving others access and opportunity. So that would be another thing I'd love to engage with. We think about investment. Are we investing not just for a particular return, but to provide other people opportunity and access? Yeah. So I like that. Thanks. I mean, I haven't written this out, so I'm just... [00:13:36][39.0]
Henry: [00:13:37] No, no, I think is great. I mean, effectively, we're doing this core collectively crowdsourcing your next book, which is awesome. But I rarely get an opportunity to do this where I get the real time process, something with a pastor and who's an author. And so this comes to me because the two things you said. One is that you talked about the biblical mandate, the creation mandate, the charge to take dominion. The fact that we were designed by a creator to operate in an economy. Second thing you talked about was the parable of the talents. Matthew twenty five. And their lesson from that and I thought popped to my head as you're talking about it. So it's also partially formed. But I'd love to riff with you about it for a second. I've always thought it was a great lesson about investing, but I've always been thrown off by the part at the end where one of the sevants comes back and says, I was afraid of you because I know you're hard, man. And his master replied, You wicked lazy servant. Well, then, you should have put my money on deposit. What do I even make of that part? [00:14:37][60.9]
[00:14:38] But the thought I had from it is is the lesson that the servant should have endeavored to understand the intent of his master before he invested. And clearly, God is not the type of hard person that the servant saying. But the lesson there is, you fool, you should have understood what the commander's intent was. What would have pleased your master? You went off and invested, or in this case, didn't invest you, regardless of what I would even think about it. And that's what really makes me mad to you. And I wonder if there's application for us as Christ followers and that rather than just going to investing with Fidelity and Merrill Lynch are all fine institutions, but just kind of passively investing, kind of going through the motions. What's it look like for us to really endeavor to understand what is our master's intent? Our master is not a hard man. He's a generous person and he wants flourishing. And so are we as investors really endeavoring to understand this is what God would have us do. And it's that kind of the message is that maybe I'm one of the takeaways from Matthew twenty five. [00:15:41][62.3]
Tom: [00:15:41] No, I think you're right. I mean, I'm just saying I think one of the things I'm most encouraged with you and Eventide and others who are thinking about this space is as just an individual investor. What are the implications for my investment? Does it own or God does it further the mission in the world? Common good. So I'm just saying, even this kind of movement of thinking investment, not just to prevent bad things, but to nourish good things. So I'm just saying I'm really excited very early in the conversation, FDI and the movement of investing wisely. But I think we're on a good trajectory. Heart hard as you know more than I do. It's hard to know what is exactly good and not good and where you draw the line. But I guess that's right. The incredible opportunity for creativity, for impact is thinking more dynamic on the area, not only of diligence, but of justice and goodness that guide that investment decision. [00:16:32][50.4]
Henry: [00:16:34] And what does the master tell us elsewhere when he reveals himself to us about the things he cares about. And it's those very things you're talking about, about justice and access, opportunity for the marginalized. [00:16:44][10.1]
Tom: [00:16:44] Yeah, job creation. Right. To me, one of the great questions of our investing, not only return, but is this creating that energy of job creation, good job creation and dignity and opportunity for people. That's a part of that investment ripple effect. [00:16:59][15.0]
Rusty: [00:17:00] Tom it's Rusty and I want to thank William and Henry for inviting me into this FDI podcast. I'm a big fan of your book. I feel a little bit like a fanboy at this point because I've marked your book up like crazy and there's at least a dozen, if not more thoughts that you bring in the book that I really hadn't thought about. And one of those is you say those who apprentice their lives to him will bear much fruit. And what really struck me there was this word apprentice. I mean, I've never heard it put that we can apprentice our lives to him to bear the fruit. So I want you to dive a little bit into that as faith driven investors how we can apprentice our lives to him and you start to talk a little bit more. But I'm really interested in how you've apprenticed your life to get you to this place where you've written and can speak so eloquently about, you know, the economics of neighborly love and the economics of the kingdom. [00:18:00][59.9]
Tom: [00:18:01] Rusty. It's a great question and my heart really animates with it. First of all, the word apprenticeship and fruitfulness, the biblical text we use the word disciple or student or pupil as a follower of Jesus and that word not to get into biblical languages. But one of the primary meanings of that and the early understanding of that word in the Greek text is apprenticeship, which again, apprenticeship is a really good word because it captures a holistic life, not just skill, but intimate relationship. And the best metaphor that captures this is Matthew 11:20-30 when Jesus invites us. And he just quoted two because he gives us this metaphor of the yoke, which is an apprenticeship metaphor of two animals being brought together in the first century to cattle or two oxen who learn how to plow others. They've learned how to be a part of that farm and what their purpose is in the world. So he takes this idea of learning from him, like being in the yoke, not like this, not an egg yolk. So he says, come to me, all who are wearing heavy laden and I will give you rest. Rest is a picture from Genesis of the Life. God has forced the full. I've got his words. But how do we do that? We take his yoke and learn from them. Right. And then he says, you'll find rest of your soul. [00:19:15][73.8]
[00:19:15] But this idea of learning from Jesus in an intimate apprenticeship captures a sense of submission to him, relationship with him, and learning from him and in and through him. So what I'm saying is this apprenticeship piece ties to fruitfulness. So in John 15- Jesus and all who are my disciples, my apprentice, same Greek word, all who are my true followers are not only my friends. Remember that intimate with me, which is the number one thing of all of life, is relationship intimate with him. But as I'm intimate, I bear much fruit and so proved to be my father's disciples or my disciples. So fruitfulness here has not only intimacy first, but it has character transformation and productivity and love. Right? This idea of productivity. So apprenticeship with Jesus is not just a vertical, it's a horizontal that I take with me in my vocational life and many smart people. Dallas'. Well, one of them said that Jesus is the most brilliant person to take with you on the job. Right? Jesus, the most brilliant economists. He's the most brilliant psychologist. I believe that from the core of my being. [00:20:20][64.8]
[00:20:21] So when I'm saying that connects to our work life now, because to be an apprentice with Jesus is not just something I do on Sunday. So I'm just praying to him and with him, which is important. But it's all of life. So when I enter my investment zone, when my work zone, my primary teacher is Jesus in that career, that endeavor, that skill, that wisdom, not Jesus doesn't give us the technical pieces, but he gives us the wisdom and empowerment and spirit, creativity to live into that world. So apprenticeship is the best summary of the word for disciple in the New Testament. And it's all inclusive. My intimacy, my work, my relationships and marriage all of life. Our apprenticeship is comprehensive and holistic. So it profoundly shapes my Monday life and its shape and life. You ask me about me. I look to Jesus first and his teaching and his presence and his empowerment to do my job today, whatever it is. More than anybody else. I mean, I learn from everybody. But Jesus is my ultimate teacher. Every moment when I'm leading a meeting, when I'm planning, when I'm creative, when I'm making an investment, I mean that that's the paradigm. It's profoundly transformational. [00:21:31][70.2]
Rusty: [00:21:32] Right. And was there a catalyst in your ministry, in your life that opened up this window for you around how we can be better faith driven investors? [00:21:43][11.3]
Tom: [00:21:45] Yeah, I think the catalysts, first of all, would be, as I mentioned, that I am an apprentice with Jesus 24/7 in all dimensions of my life, that I look to Jesus for wisdom and guidance. And again, if I have that Rusty fire that then when I think about my understanding of work, economics, all aspects of economics, including from spending but also investing, that I am going to try to listen carefully to his voice, look at what he said. Think as he thinks, love as he loves, and try to make a wise decision about a particular investment or investing in the market. Where is I look to Jesus? I pray in making those decisions. So this is not weird. This is deeply existentially true. So I'm saying when I think about that. Of course, I look at all of the wisdom of scripture as an investor of my time, talent and treasure. So I'm looking at proverbs, but Jesus is the most brilliant investor. I believe that he's the wisest person who ever walked this earth in all dimensions of life. And he's invited me. And a great invitation. Matthew Levitt to come to me. Take my yoke and learn for me. And I believe that's true every day. [00:22:56][70.6]
[00:22:57] So that's been the transformation. And that does guide my decision. One of the struggles I have was how much do I invest now for later return? How much do I give now? And I'd say that that is the hardest decision for me. Do I give more now? Do I wait and invest? Hopefully with a greater return later. So maybe you guys are wise and your listeners, how do you do that? How do you navigate the goodness of giving now of your capacity, but also taking some of that capacity and hopefully multiplying it for greater generosity later? That to me is a really crucial question. I'm turning it on you now. [00:23:32][35.1]
William: [00:23:34] That's a good question So, yeah, so you haven't figured it out. That's all right. Now, that's one to pray about. I would love if any of our listeners have thought through that. Please let us know. I Feel like we hear that a lot. You know, there's great principles around, you know, giving. You can see needs everywhere in the world. But God does tell us to be wise. You know, I feel like that's both with disposable income but also with retirement income. I mean, all different types of investing are wrapped up in that. [00:24:00][26.0]
[00:24:00] And I feel like you can find biblical wisdom to support some version at least. Of course, there's bad versions of all those, but some good version of most of those things. So yeah, if any listeners have thought through that, let us know and maybe we'ss bring Tom back on as he continues to think through it and to shift gears a little bit as we're coming towards a close here. [00:24:19][19.5]
[00:24:20] You know, we usually ask kind of where God has you right now. So if you want to answer that and be great where God has you and his word. But also, as we think about that last question, I'm interested. I'll change the question in the moment here from the spirit, hopefully. What could be a verse or a story that maybe our listeners could meditate on with regards to how to invest well, with how to think through that paradigm, maybe something that's not the parable of talents, because I feel like we've all thought through, not all of us, but a good number have thought through that and not really found that answer in there, you know, is it in the easy yoke? [00:24:52][31.5]
[00:24:52] I've heard pastors say, you know, the yoke is a set of teachings in the ancient rabbinical tradition. So while it is an oxen analogy, it's also more about come to me, be an apprentice, learn my ways, learn my yoke, my set of teachings, and then your burden will be light. And I'm interested if there's a piece of that yoke that stands out to you in this moment for our listeners to maybe go to the great imitations. [00:25:15][23.0]
Tom: [00:25:16] Matthew 11:20-30 is a very misunderstood text, so we could spend time talking about that. But I think the invitation is so important. It follows from Genesis 17 and the texts of Torah because God says to Abraham, Here's the picture of the life God has walked before me and behold, I will make you fruitful. I mean, that's the big idea for the world. [00:25:37][20.9]
[00:25:38] So what I want to suggest is that the great invitation and Abrahamic covenant of Genesis 17, is this really an invitation first to intimacy with Jesus, with God, then out of that is wholeness, this integral life of rest and wholeness and then fruitfulness. So that tax particular I mean, if I might just want to finish in terms when I'm meditating on Jesus invitation. You think about to be his apprentice to find rest. We can not fulfill the great commandment. And again, investment fits into that loving God and loving our neighbor or the great commission of making disciples if we have not embraced the great invitation. So here's one I simply want to say is that the great imitation is Matthew Levin, 20 30. It's often a misunderstood text and lost text. But Jesus gives us the path to loving God and loving our neighbor in all its comprehensiveness and also making disciples of the world. If we do not embrace the great imitation, if we do not enter his yoke, which demands submission, submission to a person first and to his teachings, then we cannot love God and love our neighbor. It's truly the Great Satan. And so many people talk about loving God to love your neighbor, but without apprenticeship to Jesus without entry is a joke with learning from him becoming like him. We cannot do that. So it's the great I called the great set up. Just love God, love your neighbor. But if you're an apprentice with Jesus, we've not entered his yoke of apprenticeship. We can not do that. On the other side, the great commission. Think about Mathew's design. It ends with the great commission, which most of us know make disciples of all the world. Well, the problem is, if we're not an apprentice or so we are making Fawlty disciples. So it's the great mission. We call the great set up a great mission. So I do think this affects our investment group. Because when you think about our stewardship on Monday and the different vocational stewards we have of what God has given to us. How do we love God and love our neighbor? Well, with that investment. But the stewardship God has given us and how do we multiply that in apprenticeship and helping others? Right now, I assume that's a big part of our mission is how do we help other investors? Other followers of Jesus invest? Well, we can't do that apart from truly inviting them into the yoke of apprenticeship with Jesus. I just think that is being a yoked apprentice of Jesus to learn to live our life like he would if he were me. That's the basis in all dimensions of life really connect. The great commandment and a great commission and profoundly, I think would speak into our investment challenge in our Monday vocation of investing well for the glory of God. [00:28:09][150.9]
William: [00:28:11] Amen, amen. I love what you said at the end there, too. You know about how, you know you learn how he would live our lives. And that's not the same for everyone. My favorite little books on calling vocations come out of your life speak by Partner Polymer. And he gives this great phrase. He talks about how, you know, the rabbis of old want to be like Moses, right? That's the person who they're trying to model their life after. And this rabbi, Rabbi Zusa is passing away at the end of his life. And he's lived a good life. And they and his disciples are saying, how do we be like you? [00:28:42][30.8]
[00:28:42] You imitated Moses to the greatest degree. How do we know that it will be like you? And he says this amazing quote that has stuck with me for a long time. He says. When I get to heaven, I don't think that God's going to ask me why I wasn't more like Moses. He's going to ask me why I wasn't more like Zusa. I think it's through that deep apprenticeship that we understand our unique calling and who God's calling us to be and what our supporting role in his kingdom is. [00:29:07][25.1]
Tom: [00:29:08] Yeah. And the hope is rest for our souls, isn't it? I mean this word rests on Genesis, but it's living a life of good truth and beauty that God has called us to live and experience in all dimensions of life, that we experience that kind of life. That's the hope of it, isn't it? I just love it. And I will give you rest. Rest is repeated twice in that text. So the rest theme comes right out of Genesis to the life God has force inside of rest. Great, great. [00:29:30][22.7]
[00:29:31] So on this podcast, the feature investor podcast, we're going to spend lots of time interviewing great folks that are experts in opportunity zones and who are experts in international currency arbitrage. And we've even heard from some people recently that think that there's a great opportunity experts, spiritual integration and cryptocurrency in bitcoin investing. So we're going to get pragmatic and actually look at actually how you deploy investment dollars. But if we miss as Christ followers and understanding about an invitation to apprenticeship and really to know God and to enjoy him forever, to know God, to love God and love our neighbor and to really endeavor to understand the master's intent. If we don't do those things first, then all the other things about how we think about asset allocation and ubit blockers and all the other things that we will absolutely take in this podcast, they will all ring hollow. And so, Tom, I'm grateful for the time you spent with us to help us to further our relationship with God, the father, to know him better, to respond positively to the great invitation, to encourage others to do the same. And I'm grateful for your leadership. [00:30:39][67.8]
Tom: [00:30:40] Thank you, Henry. [00:30:40][0.0]
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